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Balewind Vortex


Melcar

Question

So I just bought the Balewind Vortex for my army, led by Arkan the Black, and what do I find, that I cant use it with him... WTF...

Anyways I now have two questions!

1) Is there anyway within the rules to remove the monster keyword from Arkhan? Like having him dismounting his huge skeleton pony?

2) If there is not any RAW way to remove/change his keywords, has anyone here allowed monsters atop a Balewind Vortex? I'm asking because Lord Kroak can be on it, but not Arkhan! That seems its not to balance the power, its because of reasons... So if Lord Kroak can be atop Balewind Vortex, should we not just allow Arkhan or Nagash too? What I mean is, has anyone experienced any imbalance by putting a unit with monster keyword on top of this? When I say imbalance I mean in power!

I really need som good advice here, since a huge plan just went through the floor, and what was supposed to be a cool buy, now just feels like a waste of money!

 

Thanks

Cheers

 

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Interestingly RAW Nagash can still get onto a balewind. Provided there is another non nonster death wizard on the board due to an oversight in how the rules for balewinds are written.  

 

The FAQ really should have said 'Monsters can never be on a balewind' instead of 'A monster can never be noved onto a balewind'

 

However.  Its clearly not RAI and I would be ruling against it in any events I TO and would fully expect other TO's to do the same.

 

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1 minute ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Not really - you're not after fairness. You're annoyed you can't use it as you hoped to, and your opponent can.

Right... because I dont think its fair that: Kroak, Thanquol and Boneripper, Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage, Coven Throne, Luminak of Hysh with White Battlemage, Screaming Bell, can use it, when non of the Mortarchs can... Especially Kroak bothers me. SO yeah I think there is a inherent bias towards Order, which I don't think is fair. And when I say fair, I mean in terms of balanced game mechanics represented by options available to the different Alliances...
 

 

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Well none of the things you mentioned are monsters, so seems pretty fair to me.

thranquol seems to be more a typo than on purpose so expect to see that fixed if/skaven get done, not like you see him anyway. 

You'll soon change your mind on the rules if you go up against a competent Tzeentch player who is allowed to put his LoC on a balewind 

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23 hours ago, Tasman said:

No need to get rid of the vortex. It's usually banned from tournaments anyway. And 100 pts is a lot to pay for something that lasts one turn. Just make it that named characters can't use the thing. And yeah, you're right, the terrorgeist wouldn't do old Croak in.... zombie dragon would/could work though.

It doesn't only last one turn. You can stay up there all game long.

I thought about it recently and here's my take on it:

- Nagash on a Balewind Vortex would be a Nightmare, because of his ability to one-shot most models in the game on the whole table with hardly  any way of protection against it. That would easily kill most armies that rely on synergy in any way.

- Kroaknado is a really strong combo, borderline broken. Not unbeatable but...yeah I see the problem with it. Barely not OP in my book, especially since it comes in at ~800 points (Kroak+Balewind+Astrolith Bearer).

- Some other armies can build similarly powerful lists using it but they still rely a lot on dice luck. Ironjawz Weirdnob Shaman can be devastating but not _that_ strong so the 100 points are considered not worth it by Ironjawz players it seems.

- Tzeentch... I don't know that army so well but I think there may be some tough combos with those guys.

- Sylvaneth... I think there was a combo with some artefact or something...

 

But for most armies I'd actually say it isn't too severe. Lifting the restriction for Monsters would probably be ok, if you then instead treat the Balewind Vortex like an artefact, so named characters wouldn't be able to take it anymore, and the same would go for Kroak.

 

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39 minutes ago, Aginor said:
40 minutes ago, Aginor said:

t doesn't only last one turn. You can stay up there all game long.

I know. I was responding to another post where the individual said that it could be made a one turn item. Leave monsters off. Do you really want to see Kairos or even just a regular LoC on one of those?

 

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39 minutes ago, Azurious said:

Interestingly RAW Nagash can still get onto a balewind. Provided there is another non nonster death wizard on the board due to an oversight in how the rules for balewinds are written.  

 

The FAQ really should have said 'Monsters can never be on a balewind' instead of 'A monster can never be noved onto a balewind'

 

However.  Its clearly not RAI and I would be ruling against it in any events I TO and would fully expect other TO's to do the same.

 

Could you elaborate on why Nagash in RAW can use it?... I fail to see how?

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Rules for who knows summon balewinds on their warscroll state that monsters do not know the spell, but it does not 'prohibit' them from knowing it just prevents them knowing it from the warscrolls rule.

If you take a necromancer or any other dwath non monster wizzard they know summon balewind and nagash knows all spells of all death wizards on the board, including summon balewind from the necromancer or other wizzard. 

The faq prevents monsters moving onto balewinds but the process of summoning one is not a move as defined by the rules. 

Based on that RAW Nagash could conceivably summon and use a balewind as long as another non monster death wizard is on the board.  

Now as previously said this is as blatant a loophole as ever and surely not an intentional mechanic and I would rule against it from a RAI view given the recent changes ect.  But its there atm for those who play RAW and nothing else.

 

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2 hours ago, Azurious said:

Rules for who knows summon balewinds on their warscroll state that monsters do not know the spell, but it does not 'prohibit' them from knowing it just prevents them knowing it from the warscrolls rule.

If you take a necromancer or any other dwath non monster wizzard they know summon balewind and nagash knows all spells of all death wizards on the board, including summon balewind from the necromancer or other wizzard. 

The faq prevents monsters moving onto balewinds but the process of summoning one is not a move as defined by the rules. 

Based on that RAW Nagash could conceivably summon and use a balewind as long as another non monster death wizard is on the board.  

Now as previously said this is as blatant a loophole as ever and surely not an intentional mechanic and I would rule against it from a RAI view given the recent changes ect.  But its there atm for those who play RAW and nothing else.

 

Monster keyword trumps this, else you'd see Kairos on one as well. That is RAW. 

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4 hours ago, Tasman said:

Monster keyword trumps this, else you'd see Kairos on one as well. That is RAW. 

Kairos would indeed benefit from this as well.  I do reiterate im not advocating that it should be played that way, it is clearly not the visible intention of the recent Faq. 

However nothing in the written rules stipulates that monsters are prohibited from knowing or casting Summon Balewind Vortex, it only states they do not know it as a result of balewinds call (a separate ability).  And again the most recent faq stipulates that a monster may not be moved onto a balewind vortex.  The summon vortex spell states you remove the model and place it ontop.  Neither of those actions are defined as a move in the rules.  I appreciate that I am being penickerty with the language but that is RAW.

RAI is where you extrapolate the idea that monsters were not intended to be able to use a balewind vortex due to the ruling in the faq and then add additional meaning the verb move that is not currently defined in the rules or faq.

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46 minutes ago, Azurious said:

Kairos would indeed benefit from this as well.  I do reiterate im not advocating that it should be played that way, it is clearly not the visible intention of the recent Faq. 

However nothing in the written rules stipulates that monsters are prohibited from knowing or casting Summon Balewind Vortex, it only states they do not know it as a result of balewinds call (a separate ability).  And again the most recent faq stipulates that a monster may not be moved onto a balewind vortex.  The summon vortex spell states you remove the model and place it ontop.  Neither of those actions are defined as a move in the rules.  I appreciate that I am being penickerty with the language but that is RAW.

RAI is where you extrapolate the idea that monsters were not intended to be able to use a balewind vortex due to the ruling in the faq and then add additional meaning the verb move that is not currently defined in the rules or faq.

moved is definitely meant in this sense as in the model itself cannot be moved onto one under any circumstances.

 

quite finite 

 

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16 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

moved is definitely meant in this sense as in the model itself cannot be moved onto one under any circumstances.

 

quite finite 

 

I agree. 

My point is merely that it is a rules as intended as opposed to RAW.  

In game terms 'move'  has a specific definition which is outlined in the rules.  Adding additional elements to the definition based on what the word means when used in general English  is RAI not RAW.

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Eh the game plays pretty loose with the definition move, like piling in is a move, you cannot pile in to units in a way that would break coherency.

 

Similarly, picking up a model and placing it onto the BWV is moving  the model, which would violate that monsters cannot move onto a BWV.

 

I'm pretty sure there are some rules/faqs which don't allow models where they don't fit, and none of these large models fit on top of a BWV...

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Modelling question about the Balewind Vortex..

I want to convert the kit as it looks too chaotic to my taste. I want it to fit into my Sylvaneth host.

I plan to only use thewhirlwind on top of a tree stump and  branches with leaves at the top.

Does the flat part of the leaves where I plan to put a Brachwraith needs to be at the exact same height as the original scenery piece?

My concern is that I one day I could show up at a tournament and I would not be allowed to use it cause it's about 1" taller and it would give an advantage from a "true line of sight" perspective.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Skarloc said:

Modelling question about the Balewind Vortex..

I want to convert the kit as it looks too chaotic to my taste. I want it to fit into my Sylvaneth host.

I plan to only use thewhirlwind on top of a tree stump and  branches with leaves at the top.

Does the flat part of the leaves where I plan to put a Brachwraith needs to be at the exact same height as the original scenery piece?

My concern is that I one day I could show up at a tournament and I would not be allowed to use it cause it's about 1" taller and it would give an advantage from a "true line of sight" perspective.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Would depend on the TO. It could certainly be claimed to be modelling for advantage.

If you're unsure, go with the safest option of matching the 'true' vortex dimensions.

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I don't think it would be OP to have some monsters who can cast spells on a vortex, but lots of stuff I don't think would be OP is not allowed by the rules. As always, for friendly games the rules are quite clear that if you both agree to something, you can just about play however you want, but you might find push-back or unease from the average player who 'just wants to play by the rules' as a general default position.

PS. I'm sorry for your loss :( If it's any consolation; I, too, have made excited purchases that turned out to completely not work after calming down and re-reading things.

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12 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I don't think it would be OP to have some monsters who can cast spells on a vortex, but lots of stuff I don't think would be OP is not allowed by the rules. As always, for friendly games the rules are quite clear that if you both agree to something, you can just about play however you want, but you might find push-back or unease from the average player who 'just wants to play by the rules' as a general default position.

True enough, it just seems that the more I learn, the more my friends and I have to come up with adjustments for the rules to make sense and be fair across the different grand alliances. I know I'm a new player and thus only have a very limited knowledge of consequences of rule changes, but I have become quite put off/ disappointed in quite a lot of things lately...

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Hi @Melcar, no worries, you are right, Age of Sigmar is also initially not designed to be extremely balanced or even designed for competitive play alone. It's important to keep this in mind because many still assume this would be the case. 

To awnser your questions:
1. You can't do that without House-rules, however as can be implied from the above statement House-rules are actually very much intended to be used with Age of Sigmar. If your opponents and you can agree upon it, feel free to do what you like. Typically Tournaments will not have their own (house)Tourenament-rules who will allow for that specifically.

2. The imbalance that is created with Monsters on Balewind Vortex' is that the model in question is extremely difficult to attack. In many ways it's a bonus many characters would have liked but is exclusive to Wizards. 

To be honest with you my opinion on the Balewind Vortex is that by itself it is not a great competitive balanced design to begin with. If anything it is a piece of scenery that impacts the game in a negative way. It impacts the game this way because many play a fantasy miniatures game like Age of Sigmar under the assumption that they will have a lot of melee combat, supported by ranged attacks and magic. The Balewind Vortex is unique in that it cannot be awnsered by melee combat, you need to have ranged and magical attacks to deal with it. One former issue GH2016 created and is less the case now is that ranged attacks dominated the game. To a large extend they still do because it's just another attack that you do in a phase before melee occurs and in a phae where there is no player interaction whatsoever.

Stopping interactions in miniature games like this is typically seen as un-fun. I hope we will not see a Warrior tornado appear that states models within 18" cannot cast spells for example ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Killax said:

Hi @Melcar, no worries, you are right, Age of Sigmar is also initially not designed to be extremely balanced or even designed for competitive play alone. It's important to keep this in mind because many still assume this would be the case. 

To awnser your questions:
1. You can't do that without House-rules, however as can be implied from the above statement House-rules are actually very much intended to be used with Age of Sigmar. If your opponents and you can agree upon it, feel free to do what you like. Typically Tournaments will not have their own (house)Tourenament-rules who will allow for that specifically.

2. The imbalance that is created with Monsters on Balewind Vortex' is that the model in question is extremely difficult to attack. In many ways it's a bonus many characters would have liked but is exclusive to Wizards. 

To be honest with you my opinion on the Balewind Vortex is that by itself it is not a great competitive balanced design to begin with. If anything it is a piece of scenery that impacts the game in a negative way. It impacts the game this way because many play a fantasy miniatures game like Age of Sigmar under the assumption that they will have a lot of melee combat, supported by ranged attacks and magic. The Balewind Vortex is unique in that it cannot be awnsered by melee combat, you need to have ranged and magical attacks to deal with it. One former issue GH2016 created and is less the case now is that ranged attacks dominated the game. To a large extend they still do because it's just another attack that you do in a phase before melee occurs and in a phae where there is no player interaction whatsoever.

I can see what you are saying here in a big way.  I have been playing D&D for a long time and I still find stupid rules which we agree to change to something that seems to be the intended way of the rule. However, some of the things I've found in AOS seems not to follow this logic. I know I return to the Kroak thing, but the monster exclusion seem not to come from a power balance thing, but from a model size perspective, which makes no sense, since I can put a Coven Throne on it... So yeah its doen't seem they really thought ut that rule all too well. Most likely they did not think on how many of the good wizards actually are monsters. It makes sense not to put a dragon up there, but the best wizards are the ones hampered, and the best wizards are the ones where it would make most sense the have protected and empowered.... IMHO that is!

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I pretty much follow and agree with what you've said there. Then again what the narrative design and actually design is of the model might not match up. What I mean by that is that physical and narrative design in Age of Sigmar doesn't match up in many cases. In addition there is a ton of Age of Sigmar terrain that cannot be played (anymore) in Matched Play Age of Sigmar. Almost all terrain pieces in Age of Sigmar have very cool rules but practically all of them are extremely hard to give a cost at all. 

Visual logic would indeed dictate different rules as some of the actual Age of Sigmar rules do. However one thing to keep in mind here is that Age of Sigmar isn't designed by one person and thus logic, wording, keyword use and many more other rules often do not match up with what you'd expect. 

To put it into perspective, about 80% of Age of Sigmar stuff does match what you'd expect and about 20% does not. Every Faction seems to have it's oddities. I wholy agree with you that it's odd that Monsters do not 'fit' the Vortex or that a Slann does not have the Monster Keyword. It has that Monster size visually (to me).

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