Chaos keywords warscroll update

[heywoah_twitch]

Oh boy! Clarification of those pesky chaos keywords at last. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/15/chaos-warscroll-updatesgw-homepage-post-4/

"We’d like to clarify that all references to ‘Blades of Khorne’, ‘Disciples of Tzeentch’, ‘Hosts of Slaanesh’ and ‘Nurgle Rotbringers’, are synonymous with ‘Khorne’, ‘Tzeentch’, ‘Slaanesh’ and ‘Nurgle’ respectively. For example, a Blades of Khorne army can also, and interchangeably, be referred to as a Khorne army."

[Killax]

I can only hope more will follow! As offcourse, Monsters of Chaos is not alone in this  

[Galas]

Skin wolves with Chaos Keyword! This will make some people very very happy  

[Killax]

49 minutes ago, Galas said:

Skin wolves with Chaos Keyword! This will make some people very very happy  

@Kaleb Daark for example  

[RuneBrush]

What's also very interesting is that we have regular and god version of the Mutalith Beast and Slaughterbrute.

[Arkiham]

18 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

What's also very interesting is that we have regular and god version of the Mutalith Beast and Slaughterbrute.

Id prefer that to be a misprint tbh.

Don't like their being 2 warscroll for 1 model

[RuneBrush]

33 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Id prefer that to be a misprint tbh.

Don't like their being 2 warscroll for 1 model

Looks intentional, there's a ZIP with all of the updated warscrolls and those two models both have two warscrolls a piece, basically a God version and the original Slaves to Darkness one.

[Captain Marius]

Great move by GW, thats tidied things up immensely! 

[Skorvan]

Just a question about that, the monster of chaos grants the monster of chaos keyword and loose the chaos keyword and the monster keywords. That's what we are sure.

But how it's work for the brayherd shaman now ? He can invoc a chaos monster and they don't get these keywords anymore. So it is intentionnal or they forget to update the shaman's warscroll ? 

Thank you for answering ^^

[rokapoke]

@Skorvan, though some of the warscrolls affected by the change do not have the MONSTER keyword, many still do (e.g., Jabberslythe, Chimera, and others). The Shaman could still summon any warscroll with both the CHAOS and MONSTER keywords, of which there are (still) plenty.

[Skorvan]

Ho you're right, i don't open the big monster warscroll and don't see the keywords ^^'

I was thinking about the shaman because i always found weird for a little goat to summon so many creature. For me, the monster of chaos was exactly the creature who can go in every chaos army because they don't are specificly dedicated to a god (except mutalith for tzeentch and slaugter for khorne) and it was normal for the shaman to summon them but the others, like skarbrand ... the allie's strategy was for me the way to incorpored them in an army, for the story i found that more coherent, but it's my opinion

Thank you for your answer !

[TheOtherJosh]

So ... first question:

Why aren’t they FAQ’ing the Ally lists and Pitched Battle Faction lists to address their list building issue? (Unless this is only to help people who had issues reading Allegiance qualifications.)

Not sure that this even answered the question regarding Allies.... it appears to have been a half hearted effort to somewhat match Keywords and Allegiances and sort of Faction ally lists. (Kinda ...)

Second question:

So, when creating a DoT Army with Allies, does this mean that anything that can be keyword “Tzeentch” can be put into the main force? I.E. Soul Grinder (Tzeentch) from the “Daemons of Chaos” Faction list ? And you ignore the Pitched Battle Faction List as provided in the GHB 2017?

Third question followup:

How does “Daemons of Nurgle” as an ally work with Clan Pestilins? Does that allow allying ANY Nurgle force? Like Rotbringers does? Or is it based on the “Daemon of Nurgle” Faction list (which would explicitly deny the Soulgrinder/Daemon Prince/Daemon Plaguetoads of Nurgle)? Or is this Based on the keyword “Daemon” combined with keyword “Nurgle” which would allow Daemon Princes of Nurgle and Soulgrinders, etc.?

The Pitched Battle Factions are now implied to be a quasi-mix of Allegiance Names and Faction Lists.... but not really.

Determining what Allegiance ability was/is the easy part. It is on a keyword on the Warscroll.

Annoyingly, this doesn’t appear to be a fix for Allies and List Building. Merely a “fix” for handling what Allegiance ability do you get.

“Since the release of the General’s Handbook 2017, we’ve been listening to your feedback, and we’ve received a number of questions on how Chaos allegiance abilities work. We’d like to clarify that all references to ‘Blades of Khorne’, ‘Disciples of Tzeentch’, ‘Hosts of Slaanesh’ and ‘Nurgle Rotbringers’, are synonymous with ‘Khorne’, ‘Tzeentch’, ‘Slaanesh’ and ‘Nurgle’ respectively. For example, a Blades of Khorne army can also, and interchangeably, be referred to as a Khorne army.”

[Killax]

12 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Id prefer that to be a misprint tbh.

Don't like their being 2 warscroll for 1 model

Well then Khul doesnt like you 2.

[AshCrow]

12 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Looks intentional, there's a ZIP with all of the updated warscrolls and those two models both have two warscrolls a piece, basically a God version and the original Slaves to Darkness one.

No, it's not the StD version as we can't ****** ally monsters of Chaos. We can ally the god specific one for some god damned reason.

[someone2040]

16 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Id prefer that to be a misprint tbh.

Don't like their being 2 warscroll for 1 model

I don't really get why GW didn't amend the Slaughterbrute/Mutalith warscroll in the first place.

The only reason I can think, is that they didn't want another faction that has the Chaos Mark issue for allies (Like, you'd need to make Blades of Khorne ally list - Monsters of Chaos (Except Slaanesh)). Note how they sidestepped that issue with Soulgrinders and Furies since no army can ally with Daemons of Chaos anyway.

Overall though, I would rather there be 2 versions of the warscroll than not have the regular version (Personally, I don't strictly see it being necessary to have the god marked versions with allies existing).

[stato]

17 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Second question:

So, when creating a DoT Army with Allies, does this mean that anything that can be keyword “Tzeentch” can be put into the main force? I.E. Soul Grinder (Tzeentch) from the “Daemons of Chaos” Faction list ? And you ignore the Pitched Battle Faction List as provided in the GHB 2017?

If you choose something and then give it Tzeentch keyword then its no longer an ally.  If you give it a different or no keyword then its an ally.

 

Quote

Third question followup:

How does “Daemons of Nurgle” as an ally work with Clan Pestilins? Does that allow allying ANY Nurgle force? Like Rotbringers does? Or is it based on the “Daemon of Nurgle” Faction list (which would explicitly deny the Soulgrinder/Daemon Prince/Daemon Plaguetoads of Nurgle)? Or is this Based on the keyword “Daemon” combined with keyword “Nurgle” which would allow Daemon Princes of Nurgle and Soulgrinders, etc.?

How does “Daemons of Nurgle” as an ally work?  Simple, you choose from Deamons of Nurgle table in GHB.  You cant choose something not on that list that you have given the Nurgle keyword, because you cant choose it in the first place, as its not on the list.

[Thomas Lyons]

I wish they would actually give the Daemon Prince the Slaves to Darkness keyword.  Currently, even though he is in the faction list, he breaks StD allegiance if you include him in your StD list.

[Arkiham]

37 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I wish they would actually give the Daemon Prince the Slaves to Darkness keyword.  Currently, even though he is in the faction list, he breaks StD allegiance if you include him in your StD list.

wasnt that FAQ'd? saying it was fine?

[TheOtherJosh]

3 hours ago, stato said:

If you choose something and then give it Tzeentch keyword then its no longer an ally.  If you give it a different or no keyword then its an ally.

How does “Daemons of Nurgle” as an ally work?  Simple, you choose from Deamons of Nurgle table in GHB.  You cant choose something not on that list that you have given the Nurgle keyword, because you cant choose it in the first place, as its not on the list.

Your Daemons of Nurgle example is contrary to the DoT example.

If we use your Nurgle example, if something isn’t on the table, then it can’t be in the main force and use Allies.

If one is making items synonymous, then we should be looking for consistency. The example used by GW only addresses “Allegiance Rules”.

So it didn’t address the Allies question.

Are “Disciples of Tzeentch” and “Nurgle Rotbringers” and “Hosts of Slaanesh” synonymous with Tzeentch and Nurgle and Slaanesh in all cases? IE they replace it in both the Faction list, and the Allies list?

Or does the example only work for Allegiance Abilities? (Which is as indicated, and if you’re not on the “Table” you’re an ally. Because the updates didn’t fix the Allies issue.)

[Naflem]

5 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I wish they would actually give the Daemon Prince the Slaves to Darkness keyword.  Currently, even though he is in the faction list, he breaks StD allegiance if you include him in your StD list.

Yes, looks like they've not bothered to fix the fact that Rat Swarms don't have the Moulder keyword either. 

[stato]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Your Daemons of Nurgle example is contrary to the DoT example.

If we use your Nurgle example, if something isn’t on the table, then it can’t be in the main force and use Allies.

Is there anything you can give a Tzeentch keyword that could not be picked from the DoT allies tables?

[TheOtherJosh]

57 minutes ago, stato said:

Is there anything you can give a Tzeentch keyword that could not be picked from the DoT allies tables?

The furies and Soul Grinder from the “Daemons of Chaos” comes to mind.

The Daemon Prince is pickable via Slaves to Darkness.

[hobgoblinclub]

4 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Your Daemons of Nurgle example is contrary to the DoT example.

If we use your Nurgle example, if something isn’t on the table, then it can’t be in the main force and use Allies.

If one is making items synonymous, then we should be looking for consistency. The example used by GW only addresses “Allegiance Rules”.

So it didn’t address the Allies question.

Are “Disciples of Tzeentch” and “Nurgle Rotbringers” and “Hosts of Slaanesh” synonymous with Tzeentch and Nurgle and Slaanesh in all cases? IE they replace it in both the Faction list, and the Allies list?

Or does the example only work for Allegiance Abilities? (Which is as indicated, and if you’re not on the “Table” you’re an ally. Because the updates didn’t fix the Allies issue.)

Yes. They're synonymous. All 'Tzeentch' is 'Tzeentch' etc. 

[TheOtherJosh]

Just now, hobgoblinclub said:

Yes. They're synonymous. All 'Tzeentch' is 'Tzeentch' etc. 

That isn’t their example, it specifically states that this is for handling Allegiance Abilities.

And nothing is FAQ’d.

And, unfortunately, they give no examples of how this “works” for Allies.

I’ll refer you to all the situations where Nurgle  Rotbringers exists, but Pestilins doesn’t ... (which also follows under Nurgle.)

If “Nurgle Rotbringers” is synonymous with “Nurgle” does that mean that anywhere “Nurgle Rotbringers” is on the Allies list that you replace it with “Nurgle” and can bring anything Nurgle? How about Daemons of Nurgle? They’re a separate table?

[Thomas Lyons]

49 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

If “Nurgle Rotbringers” is synonymous with “Nurgle” does that mean that anywhere “Nurgle Rotbringers” is on the Allies list that you replace it with “Nurgle” and can bring anything Nurgle? How about Daemons of Nurgle? They’re a separate table?

It does indeed seem that any Nurgle is available when Nurgle Rotbringers are allies.

The issue with the Daemon Prince is that he is in the  Slaves to Darkness list but doesn't have the keyword.  That would be like Plaguepriests showing up in the Clan Pestilens list but not having the Pestilens keyword.