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Mr. White

Reservations...

37 posts in this topic

Mr. White    352

The sculpts look great. I think I'm in for a core, the skeletons and the ironjawz for sure. We'll be modding the base game Stormcast so the main dude wears a helmet and the Ironjawz 'ardboyz are fantastic models. Far better than the ancient 'ardboyz currently available separately. I'm not as wowed as most by the skeletons, but they're cool enough. I look forward to using them in my FEC faction.

Now, the game itself, well long term...I have reservations. I see two big problems:
1) I fear that as the game goes on, there are going to be cards only available in warbands one may not be interested in. This is a similar problem as what I understand X-wing has. This means $30 (guessed MSRP) outlays for a few cards and the hassle of selling off the minis.


2) My bigger concern...these sort of collectible, competitive games are cyclical. I doubt these first-wave warbands are viable in 2-3 years. Either because of ruleschanges, cards cycling, whatever. You see this in CCGs all the time. Only recent releases are legit in organized play. I could be wrong, but I doubt GW will simply sell card packs to update their older Shadespire warbands....particularly as the years roll on and the number of warbands grows (if the game is a hit). With cards tied to models, I don't see this as clean as something like BB where a team's models can be used under any ruleset. It seems one will need to keep buying into Shadespire. This takes the most wind out of my sail. Feels like these warbands come with an expiration date...

I could be wrong on this, but I think the best way for a minis gamer to approach the game is as a source to get cool models for AoS and have a fun game to play on the side. I think looking at this as a long term game is going to mean jogging the release treadmill. And that may be exactly what they want with the somewhat FFG model of this title.

Edited by Mr. White
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Mr. White    352

(upon re-reading the post, this is a bit negative. If the game isn't for me, i simply need not buy it. Not run it down for what it is.

Mods feel free to delete)

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Gaz Taylor    672

I'm not going to delete as I think you've missed what Shadespire is about. All the core cards are in the main game, whilst warband specific come with each warband. So you don't need to buy all the warbands just to get a powerful deck. Just what you need ūüėČ

Also im not expecting the core rules to change over next few years, just the setting. So in year or two a new core game in a new setting

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Killax    1,387
7 hours ago, Mr. White said:

Now, the game itself, well long term...I have reservations. I see two big problems:
1) I fear that as the game goes on, there are going to be cards only available in warbands one may not be interested in. This is a similar problem as what I understand X-wing has. This means $30 (guessed MSRP) outlays for a few cards and the hassle of selling off the minis.


2) My bigger concern...these sort of collectible, competitive games are cyclical. I doubt these first-wave warbands are viable in 2-3 years. Either because of ruleschanges, cards cycling, whatever. You see this in CCGs all the time. Only recent releases are legit in organized play. I could be wrong, but I doubt GW will simply sell card packs to update their older Shadespire warbands....particularly as the years roll on and the number of warbands grows (if the game is a hit). With cards tied to models, I don't see this as clean as something like BB where a team's models can be used under any ruleset. It seems one will need to keep buying into Shadespire. This takes the most wind out of my sail. Feels like these warbands come with an expiration date...

I could be wrong on this, but I think the best way for a minis gamer to approach the game is as a source to get cool models for AoS and have a fun game to play on the side. I think looking at this as a long term game is going to mean jogging the release treadmill. And that may be exactly what they want with the somewhat FFG model of this title.

It's really early to cover concerns allready and since the mayority of us don't have the product yet I'm also just basing opinions on assumptions here. However what you see as problems is something I do not.

1) Unlike most cardgames the cards in the decks are largely bound to the specific Warband, especially upgrades are unique and worthless to other Warbands. Up until the actual release of the second Stormcast and Bloodbound Warband I also do not expect a lot of deck overlap, as in cards functioning everywhere.
However what I indeed do agree with is that it's very likely each deck will contain some cards, possibly 1 to 3, who are nutral and might be the exact card your looking for. Worry not, for cardgames there will always be a secondary market selling them lose.
2) Shadespire so far hasn't in any way or form announced the longlivety of these Warbands. Like below I doubt they'll drop them just a few years in. Again it's possible that eventually a standardization will come of which Warbands are legal to use.

The design is a lot like FFG, I completely agree with this. There are a couple of rules however which restrict the design of cards in a favourble balanced way. Being:
A. 1 max per card per deck, the strongest card in the game will still be only required once per deck.
B. Of those 1 cards a lot of them are linked and only capable to be attached to a specific character. This means that even if we have Warbands being able to use the same cards we will still have many of those cards which will not work in Warband 1B while they do in 1A.
C. Decks only contain 20 cards, this allows for some good ammount of consistancy but more importantly means that not too many people will have to go through burning hoops to obtain that one card they really want. I think the secondary market will play into this aswell.

Lastly, even if we will see a lifetime to this initial expansion it still seems like a great boardgame aswell. I specifically set up the Let's chat's to eventually cover the deck contents so that you will be able to reconstruct the product as it came initially. This is ideal for learning new players the game and basically presenting the balance the designers present to us by their un-altered product.

For now I'm certain to get it, because I really am convinced it's a cool game to play competitively and casually.

Cheers,

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Keldaur    69

1) It entirely depends on how they choose to make additional releases. I will be honest, if you don't want to invest early into the game, just don't do it. I will buy the core, and that's enough for me to play and probably make the investment worth it nonetheless.

2) Even if that's the case, 2-3 years for such a small investment seems worth it to me. I can spend the same in a friday night, dinner, cinema, go out.

 

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Ben    1,425

I expect that there will be great cards in a war band you are not interested in, but unlike FFG and other systems, you can only play 1 card per deck, so gone are the days of buying a bunch of bad ships just to get the 4 of the new hot card.  

Also I guess there will be a good 2nd hard market out there

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Killax    1,387

The prime issue Ive had for a while with ffg too is the 'must buy multiple starter sets design'. So far there is no indication that this would apply for Warhammer Underworlds.

In general though what I feel GW does better here to is to have the game easy enough to understand for everybody. I was a huge fan of Conquest LCG and Warhammer Invasion but both those games reward the tactical aspect arguably too much. This results in beginner games being either difficult to play correctly or hard to do against someone whos new.

Small sets, small Warbands and small decks leave small room for unbalance.

So far Ive also not seen any cardgame or card aspect of games who handle multiple quantities of the exact same card well. One of the reasons why Malifaux and even poker does succeed here is the max 1 of each card. Its also why Commander or EDH from MtG works better as a game that can be played casually and competitively.

The prime reason why Id advice any player to buy into it is because GW has really thought through this product well. Even the sleeve sets match what you want. Clear sleeves, Objective deck sleeves and Power card deck sleeves.

Doing it right isnt hard but requires thought. The only thing that I potentiallg worry about is if it will catch onto a "mini gamers market". In the clubs and stores I went to we usually see divided player groups. That of the boardgamer, minigamer and cardgamer. This game incorporates it all in a functional manner, it makes the product unique but also means it isnt catered to one buyers group specifically either.

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Mr. White    352

Anyone know if the models are made in Nottingham or China?

Also, I hope GW, or some 3rd party, makes modular rubble terrain to go in the blocked hexes.

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Charles    92

I’ve ordered my set this morning, very much looking forward to painting the models.

I‚Äôm also looking forward to painting the expansions in November. It will be good to have small warband for each grand alliance that I can use in a Skirmish ūüėÄ

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Killax    1,387
1 hour ago, Mr. White said:

Anyone know if the models are made in Nottingham or China?

Also, I hope GW, or some 3rd party, makes modular rubble terrain to go in the blocked hexes.

The miniatures are from nottingham, the other stuff is likely made in China, though still quality.

I think the latter will happen. I also hope that the design team will design a box that's catering to casual multiplayer games with bosses and the likes. The options where this game can grow are many :) 

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Uveron    255

My only reservation, is that I kinda wish they had found away to do pre-painted. even if it was very basic. There will be a limit to the audience size with the game because of that.. which makes me worry about the life cycle of the game. 

But the same could be said for bloodbowl, and well yes. 

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MacDuff    214

I'm not sure a crappy assembly line paint job on these amazing sculpts would sell more games. Shadespire is designed to be a gateway into the hobby. Minis inspire AOS collecting and gaming. Unpainted models inspire picking up a paintbrush. The setting inspires exploration of the AOS lore. Competitive gaming inspires the formation of gaming groups. A low price point inspires new gamers to try it out (the price would be much higher if minis were painted). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see cheap paint kits with mini paint pots for each warband. This get your handful painted at low cost and puts new players on the franchise pathway.

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MacDuff    214

I would add that low-standard painted minis would create terrible PR blowback from existing GW hobby gamers. They'd have to strip the paint off to create a high-quality miniature to add to their collection (which a lot of folks on this site intend to do, me included. I need a second female Stormcast.).

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Lucio    224

My biggest reservation with Shadespire is the longevity of the game. It's a crowded market out there and the game's tied to a less well established IP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm buying this at the first opportunity, and likely picking up every warband too in the same way I've done for Blood Bowl. It's just the nagging feeling that there's not quite enough interest in the product to generate critical mass.

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Carnelian    435
19 hours ago, Killax said:

I was a huge fan of Conquest LCG and Warhammer Invasion but both those games reward the tactical aspect arguably too much. This results in beginner games being either difficult to play correctly or hard to do against someone whos new.

So true. It was hard to pick up and play conquest casually against people who had not played it before which really mitigated it's potential against my friends

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Killax    1,387
1 hour ago, Lucio said:

My biggest reservation with Shadespire is the longevity of the game. It's a crowded market out there and the game's tied to a less well established IP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm buying this at the first opportunity, and likely picking up every warband too in the same way I've done for Blood Bowl. It's just the nagging feeling that there's not quite enough interest in the product to generate critical mass.

Very valid point. The big difference for me though is that Blood Bowl, great for it's era, is ultimately also outshined by other (fan) products that are clearly somewhat inspired by it. In the case of Blood Bowl this being Guild Ball. Working on a very similar skirmish system but Guild Ball being much easier to set up and follow initially and also spending all their time in updating rules to make the game as flawless as possible.

Frankly speaking, because of this, it's good that Shadespire is what it is and not just Mordheim in an Age of Sigmar jacket so to say. Because another (fan) product that certainly played on Mordheim's dissapearance and grew into amazing ways is Malifaux. To the point where I have to say, much as I loved Mordheim, Malifaux does all of it's design better. In many ways the Mordheim computer game did Mordheim better aswell and looked a ton like Malifaux' gameplay.

Ultimately Shadespires longevity is decided by it's sales. Your right in that it's unclear if there is a huge market for it. I think that their designers have convinced Games Workshop to at least do 7 sets and after that it's their sales who will decide if the journey gets continued. Again I do believe GW understands they have some potential gold here but yeah if it really doesn't catch on it will be like FFG's "dead living card games" aswell. Conquest got it's plug pulled despite having some great designs too. But the sets Im certain we will see are:
- Starter set (out the 21st)
- Ork set (out 28th)
- Undead set (out 28th)
- Fyreslayer set 
- Skaven set
- Blood Warriors set
- Vanguard Hunters set

I got this information second hand at a great store my friend works and I used to work so I'm certain it's legit enough because it comes from GW itself. Even with this in mind I like where it's going, perhaps I will not collect it all but will simply collect what I like and what I know my friends like. Speaking of which, fans who are fans of skirmish games, like Morhdeim are also bound to love this. WFB pals of mine from the past (they dont play any mini games anymore) where guenily excited for this because it removes so much of the space, time and money issues larger army games present. 

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Carnelian    435
40 minutes ago, Killax said:

the sets Im certain we will see are:
- Starter set (out the 21st)
- Ork set (out 28th)
- Undead set (out 28th)
- Fyreslayer set 
- Skaven set
- Blood Warriors set
- Vanguard Hunters set

These sets are also those revealed in the picture from games workshop so I think the community is pretty convinced all of these are locked in for Shadespire

 

Edited by Carnelian

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Killax    1,387
5 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

These sets are also those revealed in the picture from games workshop so I think the community is pretty convinced all of these are locked in for the first release wave

Yep and it's likely the set up we'll see for it the comming months (2 Warbands a time), which makes sence as Ive also had some second hand information that 01-2018 will be the start for the Organized Play designed for Warhammer Underworlds. 

This would mean that we start the game "for the reals" with 6 accesable Warbands, each designed in their own playing way. 

I really think that GW can get some great game out of this. Hope to see alternate art cards in White Dwarfs eventually aswell. Which is something I think will be quite likely for the Stormcasts. 

Cheers,

Edit: Plus this would make for a good promotional poster then aswell.

pic3751545_md.jpg

Edited by Killax

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Keldaur    69

I have one reservation about competitive play. They said they will do big tournaments. That's fine, but what about store championships ? Have they talked about prizes or tournament packs for stores ? If they try to promote the game competitively from top to bottom, they will fail imo.

Edited by Keldaur

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Killax    1,387
1 minute ago, Keldaur said:

I have one reservation about competitive play. They said they will do big tournaments. That's fine, but what about store championships ? Have they talked about prizes or tournament packs for stores ?

Well they are allready handing stores the extended art cards and the promotional box (for free) when they buy 20+ packs of the starter kit.

There are several stores who are likely now allready demo-ing it. Though in Europe at least it's really up to the store owner to decide to run such an event or not. I hope some GW's will pick up the banner first on that. Though at the same time not all GW's have that much room for 12+ players :P despite Warhammer Underworlds clearly thaking up less space as either AoS or 40K.

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Keldaur    69

Exactly. So it's up for flgs to be up for the task of organizing a tournament scene, rather than from GW stores. Also promotional cards are fine, but acrylics are also very fine tournament prizes for participation.

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Keldaur    69

I have one question for the people who has checked it out more. The common cards that come in the core/warbands are the same or for example in the skeleton box can come a common that doesn't come on the ironjaws warband boxset?

 

Edit - nevermimd killax had already answered this. Kind of a bummer,.but as a magic player not that big of a deal if the warbands are priced decently.

Edited by Keldaur
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Killax    1,387

So far I think ‚ā¨22,50 per Warband seems decent, the fun part is indeed that you could eventually end up with a whole Warhammer Underworlds army. Though personally I think that one of the cool things about this game is that it rewards those with cool social contacts aswell, if you want to borrow one card for an event, why not? At least that's how my MtG days also worked from time to time. Owning everything is an option but not a must. I also feel that there is a market for Skirmish gamers in this too so Im sure youll find someone who's not using 1 card in particular... Afterall you can't play every Warband at the same time.
One thing that has struck me as a nice combo allready is that the Bloodreaver deck contains a Neutral card; Daemonic Weapon, which hurts your fighter when using a stronger attack but offcourse this is ideal with the Orruk Warband who's allready into the business of looking for pain.

In addition I also think most cards per deck are bound to that Warband, and in most cases you will go through two thirds your deck (?), including thaking a 'mulligan'. So there is also still a chance in not finding the card you want. Which brings me to another point which I really like and that's that luck isn't completely removed from the game but largely focused around the dice throwing aspect.

I've read quite a few reviews now, most of which seem to feel like cards really matter, I agree with that in the context of it influencing the game but I do believe the true tactical reward comes from placement, reading the board and being able to predict what your opponent is most likely to do. Any bordgame with tiles and back and forth activations is bound to have some chess-like aspects and to me this is where a ton of potential in Warhammer Underworld lies.
-In the end Warbands will play in a certain way, based on their character cards now. At the same time I feel the initial releases will be 'easy' on the difference in characters per Warband, meaning most will not flip to Inspired in many unique ways. I do think the latter is bound to happen.
- Decks dedicate how well you can play the Warband your way. Loads of ways to ensure both players open with strong starting hands, luckily I have not seen cards that worry me. The moment we see Power cards drawing 2+ new Power cards we might get into trouble though ;) I don't know all the cards yet, so please say this kind of stuff isn't in there!
- 
Playing and moving the actual pieces is totally up to the player though and this seems to be where the match ups are decided. Due to pieces being relatively easy to remove under normal circumstances the room for error is not too big. Obviously both Bloodreavers and Sepulchral Guard have some more room for error but it remains very easy for Stormcasts and Orruks to stick around and hand out the beating. Which should lead to great results from smaller Warbands if played well.

 

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1 hour ago, Killax said:


One thing that has struck me as a nice combo allready is that the Bloodreaver deck contains a Neutral card; Daemonic Weapon, which hurts your fighter when using a stronger attack but offcourse this is ideal with the Orruk Warband who's allready into the business of looking for pain.



 

I never thought of that.. but that's an awesome way to make Hakka/Basha a threat from the off. Nice catch.

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Killax    1,387
18 minutes ago, Praetor of Calth said:

I never thought of that.. but that's an awesome way to make Hakka/Basha a threat from the off. Nice catch.

Just wish someone with the stuff would put the contents online :P I don't mean full scans with pictures and the like but describing it would really be helpful. 

Offcourse it's not my intend to go against @Gaz Taylor's initial topic about not sharing too much content, but the more players know  about contents and organized play the easier it becomes to convince others it is intresting, competitive, balanced and a regular boardgame aswell. Which is very hard to know if you go by some earlier reviews (who expected it to be a gateway game) and earlier impressions (wanting Warscrolls for AoS for these models). 

What the honest truth behind it for me is that Warhammer Underworlds is a whole game in itself, supported in itself and offers the competitive depth that indeed is missing in some armies of either Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40.000. I believe the designers of the army games are fully aware that not everything can and will be perfect. Reason being, the game is too large for that.
One of the things this could be compaired with is actually a boardgame/cardgame/miniaturegame variant of very popular pc games like Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends and the like. I say this because in many cases those games present the same win conditions and the same limited battlefield type of play. It obviously isn't the same scale but then again this is a 1vs1 up to 4 players. If you go for the largest set up it's beginning to look like those pc games a lot.

Questions I would ask myself before going into this game would be:
- Have you enjoyed Magic the Gathering in the past or present?
- Do you like Games Workshop miniatures?
- Are you looking for tactical games that are around 45 minutes to an hour? 


If the awnser is yes to all, Warhammer Underworlds is your game. Regardless of wether or not your going the more competitive route. In my eyes that route is an option, not mandatory, much like regular AoS and MtG. 
As before there is a lot of narrative potential available for this game because tiles can really define the setting, so can other stories. Wether or not the design team will also branch into it is unknown at this moment. So if your looking for a more D&D like experience I don't think Warhammer Underworlds is the game for you. It's quite clear cut combat, objectives and medium time consuming game. 

Edited by Killax
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