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How to win a Golden Demon.


Ben

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Is it possible to win a golden demon from being an average painter?  

I guess any skill can be learned but where do you even start with this?  

If someone were to set a goal of wanting to win a Demon (even a bronze) what should they focus on learning to do and how can they 'hack the system' to maximise chances?  

I guess that entering the open competition is crazy talk, so is there an easy route to a Demon?  (Ages of Sigmar open day I'm looking at you) 

Are there any Demon winners on here that can give tips? @Painted by G

It would be awesome everyone could share this thread with any Demon winners out there to see if we can get some advice on how to set about trying to achieve a big goal and learn to be a better painter.

I'd love to create a list of techniques that can be learned and used to take your painting to the next level.

 

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I'm not sure I can speak from a position of authority but I have been lucky enough to win some GDs. Though, do Australian Golden Demons and GW staff Demons count? :-)

Anybody can win a GD if they put the effort in. 

I don't think that there are any ways to hack the system or routes to easy Demons anymore. Once you could enter in one of the smaller (read Australia or Canada or Japan) Demons or one of the less popular categories(read Warhammer large or LotR unit) and get "lucky" but even there you had to have quality stuff to walk away with a statue. With the consolidation of GD to just the UK and primarily Warhammer Fest the standard has gone up. Way up, but at the same time access to the knowledge and techniques of the top painters is now much greater. Once it was just a few pages by Mike McVey in White Dwarf once a month if you were lucky, but now there are plenty of tutorials online and you can get in contact with the artists via FaceBook or Twitter or forums or blogs fairly easily. 

If you want to win a Demon my advice is learn as much as you can from other painters (go to workshops, buy their books, ask questions etc), be involved in the serious painting community (go to events, seek out good forums/blogs/FaceBook groups etc) and practice, practice, practice.

As for techniques the two that I found most helpful were glazes and colour theory. Oh, and get good brushes (Windsor & Newton No. 7s).

http://www.mainlymedieval.com/ozpainters/viewtopic.php?t=49

http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1757-urmuth-painting-flesh-and-using-colour

http://massivevoodoo.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/tutorial-working-with-glazes.html

http://www.arcanepaintworks.com/blog-1/2016/4/21/color-theory-ultra-basics

http://handcannononline.com/blog/2012/08/27/a-beginners-guide-to-beginning-what-are-we-doing-here/

Hope that helps. I'll be interested to see what others have to say too and following every link because I'm always trying to improve too.

 

 

 

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I will see if I can get Neil or Andy to look over here but I know Neil is pretty busy at the moment in particular. 

 

Neil is my co-host on The Imperial Truth - the 30K podcast - and has won multiple GDs, Andy Wardle is a multiple GD and a Slayer Sword winner who we have had on the show a couple of times to discuss how he won his Slayer Sword at the Horus Heresy weekender but also the GD at WarhammerFest this year. You can find the episodes here:

 http://theimperialtruth.com/episode-043-andy-wardle-slayer-sword-winner/

http://theimperialtruth.com/episode-045-golden-demon-2016/

Both these guys are part of online groups/forums/read blogs about, by and with other competition level painters. This means they are looking at, asking questions at and receiving feed back about the top paint jobs and from the top people so when they post their own stuff they are having quality feedback as well as receiving quality information in the first place.

They both say that practice and time are the biggest things, the more you do something the better you get - I'm not competition winner but compare my models from 10 years ago to now and there is a huge difference. Andy is part of MKA Studios who run painting courses where all this is condensed over a weekend or even a day and those guys must be good as there are a growing number of their students who are winning GDs. They also both say just enter a GD, this will give you a starting point, take away some of the fear/nerves and you can also get feedback from the judges as to why they judged your model the way they did - both the good and the bad. 

As for hacking the system, kinda. There are multiple GD competitions now and they are different sizes, WarhammerFest will be the big one which will attract everyone but some of the smaller ones are at events that don't hold as much interest for painters so they maybe smaller in terms of entries - these 'mini' Demons can still be hotly contested though. Another way is to look at the categories of entry, The open category will feature staff and so the level can sometimes be really high as the studio painters decide to enter. Single character or vehicle (in 40/30K) appear to attract the most entries with squads being slightly smaller, almost every event I have been to the Duel section has had the least number of entries. Number of entries and quality of entries are not tied so it doesn't necessarily help your chances but it's worth considering, there are other issues with Duel in that composition of the piece becomes a much more important part of the judging than in the others so picking the right models and scene is as important and regularly people will convert or sculpt to help this.

The guys also talked about GDs being slightly different to some other painting competitions as the IP is a factor in the judging, GW run this competition and it serves as advertising really plus Alan Merritt often heads up the judging panel, for those who don't know Alan Merrit is the lore keeper for GW, so if a model doesn't feel like it fits within the universe that GW have created then you will probably struggle to win a Demon.

The one thing that has always struck me about winners is how no technique is off the table. Certain parts of the community look down on dry brushing for instance but Andy dry brushed part of his slayer sword winning model and Jen Haley (winner of loads of painting stuff and judge on the Crystal Brush - she did the Sister of Battle vs Killa Kan duel and the guardsman reading his auspex as Lictor loomed over the wall behind him) proudly states that see had dry brushed various winning models. What ever technique gets the result you want is completely legitimate and justified, in fact Andy mentioned he could get the same result another way but it looks no better and takes a lot more time. 

Anyway that's me giving the roughest review of those chats we had on the 'cast. hope it was helpful in some way.

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11 hours ago, Brunel.Richard said:

With the consolidation of GD to just the UK and primarily Warhammer Fest

Are there any painting competitions left in Oz? I got back into the hobby after the Oz GD was wound up, and I'd like to try my hand at competitive painting, just for the experience. I know Ozpainters used to run an annual comp, but that forum looks to have died. 

PS that skin tutorial you linked was incredible!

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Plan on putting in a ton of time into just one model. My Orc that won silver in 2012 took me about 2 months I think, probably around 100 hours worth of work. My Plaguebearers that took silver in 2013 were painted over the span of about half a year with each one receiving as much time as a normal character model from me.

There are obviously a ton of painting techniques that help, glazing being a big one. I'll try and edit this later with a few more of my thoughts.

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Simple answer is there are no 'hacks'.

There is a lot more information and tutorials out there nowadays but that also means alot more competition.

The best advice I could give is to practice, practice practice. It takes a long time to hone a painting technique that you are happy with. Painting models for armies is vastly different from painting for competition.

You could spend hours painting just a face for a comp. This type of painting discipline is foreign to a lot of painters who paint to produce armies. Although this is a contradiction in me saying this as I won my bronze demon by painting an army on a terrain piece. This took me 5 years to complete with an insane level of detail on the model. I only paint models for armies so cannot give that much advice except when blending use Lhamian medium, it makes painting so much easier.

Regarding the Golden Demon, primarily it is a painting competition that rewards painting skill but it also considers individuality and models epitomising the essence of the Warhammer universe. You will need an understanding of colour theory and the aesthetic of composition to push all the buttons. Look at other entries and winners and then come up with an original idea.

Good luck with that.

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Yeah, there are no easy ways to win a Demon! Especially not with it being Uk only now.

Best Advice: Learn. Practice. Improve. Repeat.

You'll notice the quality of the winners took a staggering leap with the coming of the internets, that's no coincidence. Since getting back into the hobby, I've learned so much from others, a stark contrast to how it was when I started out!

You need to make use of that resource.. most of the best painters out there will happily give advice, as well as tips and tricks on technique and or tools/materials. Keep questions short and to the point though, asking "how did you paint the armour?" will be time consuming to answer, as it may have taken a long time and many different techniques.

I've painted for a long time, but was never very good at modelling, specifically scenic base building. That's an art in itself, but there's so many resources out there to help, even the 'train-set weirdos' have an amazing amount of knowledge on creating stuff like that! Look them up :) I've made a concerted effort to improve my basing, learning from everywhere I can. Many excellent resources have been listed above, but Massive Voodoo is a must to check out. 

That said, if you're no good at basing, keep it simple, you don't need a virtual diorama on a 32mm base to win.. Case in point:

4-40klarge-bronze.jpg?w=620

Play to your strengths.. if you're good at Orcs, paint one of them.. if you struggle with faces.. stick to Marines or Stormcast.. 

Echoing the comments above, Golden Demon hopes to showcase the Warhammer Universe, first and foremost your entry needs to be fitting with that. The stronger it screams 'Warhammer' the better it'll do.

The smaller events may be a good way of getting into participating, but I'm yet to go to one. Some of them last year did have a very small amount of entries, but don't let fool you.. if just 3 of them are GD veterans (and they will be), getting your hand on a trophy will be just as hard as the main event! 

The best source of inspiration I had was attending the event and entering something. I did so in 2010 with and Orc Warboss from my army, it was amazing to see all the other entries, and incredibly exciting to see my entry make the finals! I was hooked after that! Best advice is to just go and do it! 

Hazmat Gutspilla, Finalist 2010

Hazmat Gutspilla 2.jpg

 

4 years (and many finalist pins later) I managed to snag a Bronze with Grukk Faceripper in the 40k Large Model Category

4-40k-large-bronze1.jpg?w=620

 

I was absolutely ecstatic to get a Demon, Bronze was a good as Gold for all I cared! But I'm under no illusion, I might never get another one, no matter how hard I try. The standard of entries is staggering and gets better each year! 

The dates are already announced for the next season of GD, which is fantastic! Get painting and enter, you'll be hooked!

I'm all psyched up to paint something now! Off to Learn, Practice, Improve & Repeat!

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I've been following GD on and off since about 1990 as an armchair critic without entering except once at Games Day when I entered Young Bloods and didn't place . My first and only Games day was '94. It was so busy I didn't want to queue up to get my mini back at the end , I was only about 12 or so and I hoped they would post it back to me but I never got it back. I took that pretty hard and never entered again.

 

A lot of people saying there are no hacks, which may be true, but there are certain trends and things you can do to popularize your entry and give it a much better chance over other competition that I've noticed over the years.

contrast , something that pops well

demonstrate a range of skills,

presentation, display quality

All the regular GD winners out there can tell you more than me, but that's my 2 cents.

Lastly there's a saying that to master anything in life you need to spend minimum of 1000 hours doing it before you can consider yourself an expert. 

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Thanks for sharing guys!

To say 'there are no hacks' is not true at all!  This single thread is a hack already.  I have some fantastic actionable tips to right away start working on if I wanted to attempt to win a Deamon.  24 hours ago I didn't have any starting point.  Thats a hack!

Some more advice from Twitter:

@DarrenLatham -

  • Surround yourself by those better than you. practice and listen to feedback and then practice more.
  • Take a look at your recent paint jobs and try to see what aspect you have difficulty with. focus on that until you get it, then move on to the next thing and do the same. so if you struggle with faces paint loads if heads until you nail it.

@timfisher22

I hope that I can get more people to give some advice in this thread and it would be great to see peoples attempts at putting these tips into action.  

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10 hours ago, One angry dwarf said:

Are there any painting competitions left in Oz? I got back into the hobby after the Oz GD was wound up, and I'd like to try my hand at competitive painting, just for the experience. I know Ozpainters used to run an annual comp, but that forum looks to have died. 

PS that skin tutorial you linked was incredible!

Depends where you are. There is the Crystal Dragon at CanCon (http://www.arcanepaintworks.com/crystal-dragon/) and I think GW here in Victoria is running something soon and that's about it. No GDs in the country is a huge loss.  

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This is a really interesting thread. I've never entered Golden Demon as I see I've always looked at it as another step up on the painting ladder that I don't think I have reached yet - I finally entered Armies on Parade this year which was the first GW painting event I'd gone to. However looking at the entries from this year and all the positive buzz it's generated I'd certainly consider it next time. 

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This is really interesting information. I'm going to check out some of these links as painting is definitely a major part of the hobby for me. 

I've always felt my stuff is no way near GD level - I'll start getting critique from others and improve slowly I hope :) 

i think I'd feel more confident if I started entering local tournaments (just missed a local one due to working away) and getting feedback that way.

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  • 2 months later...

Hey guys!

just found this forum and the thread really interested me! 

 

Seeing as as my ork with shokk attak gun is pictured above (and I had an "alright weekend" ) I thought I'd add my thoughts.

I don't think there is an easy way or a hack to winning a demon. There are some very easy ways to NOT win a demon though. 

People sometimes forget that it is GWs competition and anything that is not "IP compliant" won't get very far. 

Also it's massively important that ALL parts of your entry are rendered to the same high level. If you scrimp on certain parts then it will be very obvious and stick out a mile. 

From speaking to the judges at the weekend, both Orruks in the top 3 for single mini were of a similar standard, however mine had a more "thematic base" that was more in keeping with the AOS universe. 

Tight highlights, smooth blends, awesome theme and good colour composition will get you into a finalists spot.....then it's a complete guessing game after that! 

 

Happy to to answer any questions people have about it though, I've certainly had my ups and downs with GD! 

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Looking at the competition at the AOS Open day last weekend, the competition standard was as high as the regular Golden Demon, but there were far far less entries. At one point I looked over and counted the statues for the awards and it looked like there was almost as many statues as entries.  So if you are entering a fantasy mini, I would say this was the event to do it as there's the least competition.

*Edit I went in a few rounds in through judging at around 1-2pm so a few had been eliminated already, but there was still much less than I'd expected to see. Maybe about 20 entries in total

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14 minutes ago, James McPherson said:

Looking at the competition at the AOS Open day last weekend, the competition standard was as high as the regular Golden Demon, but there were far far less entries. At one point I looked over and counted the statues for the awards and it looked like there was almost as many statues as entries.  So if you are entering a fantasy mini, I would say this was the event to do it as there's the least competition.

*Edit I went in a few rounds in through judging at around 1-2pm so a few had been eliminated already, but there was still much less than I'd expected to see. Maybe about 20 entries in total

I think that this isn't going to be any 'cheat' for future events for AoS as it grows.

It does apply to other competitions where there aren't that many entries and I guess boils down to people thinking 'I'm not good enough to paint at this level'.

Even if that's the case, give it a go with your best model. You might be surprised and can only learn from the other competitors.

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2 hours ago, Turragor said:

I think that this isn't going to be any 'cheat' for future events for AoS as it grows.

It does apply to other competitions where there aren't that many entries and I guess boils down to people thinking 'I'm not good enough to paint at this level'.

Even if that's the case, give it a go with your best model. You might be surprised and can only learn from the other competitors.

 

Well I cant see people making the trek from all over the country or all over Europe just to come to such a small event. It was a tiny studio open day. Felt like more of a school holidays family day thing than a big event, which was nice in its grass roots feel, but if you are a competition painter doing things like Hussar and Adepticon and Golden Demon, all of which you have to attend to enter (I think right?) Then you are going to save your travel money to try and win on the biggest stage possible and get the most exposure for your work.

The only entries I recognised there were one of @amysnuggs Stormcast Eternals in her trademark dark gold style, and what looked like one of @AdHocGames bighat chaos dwarf units (the horrible plastic dudes from the 90s)

 

 

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You are right. It's a good idea to target quieter events to get your name out there.

Begs the question, "does a reputation that precedes you have any kind of impact?"

I was just thinking about those bigger contests when I said it wouldn't do to rely on a small model turnout.

 

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Historically it's been uncommon for a "public WIP" miniature to take home a demon, a few years back people would keep any entries really secret until they'd been displayed and then release a compilation of WIP pictures.  No idea if this does make any difference or not, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that various painters frequent known painting forums (e.g. CMoN) and as such a model published on there during it's WIP could loose that initial wow factor.

That said you do have a number of sickeningly talented painters who show models on twitter and similar mediums who still win demons (I'm thinking heresy era here).

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It does always worry me that having entries "out there" before the competition may take away some of the wow factor for the judges. That said, sometimes it's helpful for fresh eyes to look over it and critique it, especially if those people are top level painters. 

Depends how long it's been about I guess. I'd hate to enter something that the judges first reaction is "oh not this thing again, it's been spammed to death!"

My Orruk was shown almost daily on Instagram as WIPs and then the final pics were floating about online for 2 weeks prior to GD due to the 'Eavier metal competition on Facebook and he didn't do too bad!  

With regards to secrecy and support, I speak to a 20+ time GD winner on an almost daily basis about projects for future comps. We ended up in the same category in May and fighting over bronze. We both knew that would be a possibility.  I ended up sneaking it and he simply shrugged and said that he needed to up his game and we are now discussing next years entries. I felt devastated for him. Most top level competition painters know each other, follow each other on social media and get together at events such as the GD winners day and are generally really supportive of each other. 

There was a disappointingly low model count on show last weekend. The only category that had any real number of entries was single mini and the standard was extremely high with no one really knowing which way it was going to go. 

To act as a gauge of the standard, an extremely talented multiple GD and slayer sword winner did not place in his category with a very, very good entry. 

From speaking to the judges, they care passionately about GD and I don't think that they would cheapen it by awarding trophies to models that didn't deserve it just because there were only 2-3 entries in the category. 

What I do find really disappointing are the people online who claim there are a number of conspiracy theories when it comes to GD. I have heard some truly ridiculous stories over the years! 

 

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I entered for the first time and was lucky enough to pick up two finalist pins in the Single Mini and Unbound category. One of the things I noticed, and this may well not be true, was that models from armies were much less likely to collect a finalist pin than those that are painted 'for competition.' By this I mean display bases, plinths etc say to the judges 'this is a competition piece.' My Archaon is a model I'm very pleased with -  the blending on the wings took several weeks, and the heads I think are done to a solid standard. Overall I think the model is certainly up to the standard of the Dwarf that got through to the final. The judges, however, had other ideas! Things that I think let it down were the base - it was clearly a gaming base and had things like built in wound markers which make gaming easier, but have nothing to do with story or theme for example. Another good point that came up in discussion was that even though I spent a good number of hours on it did I REALLY focus on every part? The Dwarf and base took maybe 8-10 hours, but the model is very small. If I multiplied that out across Archaon did I spend as much time on each section? - probably not.

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3 hours ago, Stevewren said:

I entered for the first time and was lucky enough to pick up two finalist pins in the Single Mini and Unbound category. One of the things I noticed, and this may well not be true, was that models from armies were much less likely to collect a finalist pin than those that are painted 'for competition.' By this I mean display bases, plinths etc say to the judges 'this is a competition piece.' My Archaon is a model I'm very pleased with -  the blending on the wings took several weeks, and the heads I think are done to a solid standard. Overall I think the model is certainly up to the standard of the Dwarf that got through to the final. The judges, however, had other ideas! Things that I think let it down were the base - it was clearly a gaming base and had things like built in wound markers which make gaming easier, but have nothing to do with story or theme for example. Another good point that came up in discussion was that even though I spent a good number of hours on it did I REALLY focus on every part? The Dwarf and base took maybe 8-10 hours, but the model is very small. If I multiplied that out across Archaon did I spend as much time on each section? - probably not.

Congrats on the pins mate! 

I think what you've described sums up the judging process at GD really well and just goes to show that it's a PAINTING competition. It most definitely isn't a "who can bring the coolest/latest model" competition. Which is what a lot of the tin foil hatters on the Internet will have you believe. 

The trouble with something like Archaon is that it's so huge that you have to make doubly sure that every tiny little detail is finished to the same standards that you are putting into the focal points such as the models face, or faces in your case! : ) 

models that are painted specifically for competition are always going to fare better than those painted for a gaming army. It's the nature of the beast. That said, my big mek was painted for an army. I decided to jazz him up a bit by adding some little extra details, a nice plinth base and name plate and managed to come away with a bronze! Simple things, but it goes a long way to show off the professionalism of your entry and how seriously you take the event. 

As Daz says in the video, overall presentation is key and rightly or wrongly things like plinths and name plates make a difference in a judges subconscious. 

My current project is a large diorama for GD Classic next May. Each mini is being painted to my absolute best standard, even the ones that will be obscured or only acting as background filler. My thinking being that I want to effectively have a gold standard squad entry but in an action pose that tells a story. 

It will take me all year but hopefully the end result will be worth it. 

The painting community in the UK is really positive and friendly. The only way to really improve is to actually enter and get as much feedback from judges and other entrants as you can. 

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8 hours ago, Martinwaller said:

It most definitely isn't a "who can bring the coolest/latest model" competition. Which is what a lot of the tin foil hatters on the Internet will have you believe.

Says the guy that painted Gordrakk on foot and won a Slayer Sword and GD! ;)

Seriously though,  as DL says in this vid,

He states they want entries that reinforce the AOS background, so does that mean the fastest/easiest/most reliable way to do that is choose current minis and the newest stuff?

Obviously your painting has to be incredible as well, which yours is, but you also made a shrewd and clever choice by choosing a 'winning' model from the off.

Is there any advice you can give when choosing a single mini category model to paint Martin?

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