Let's Chat: Order Serpentis

[syph0n]

@Kaleun thanks for the reply. We're planning a 1k game to get us back into the hobby, play 1k for a while. 

When we expand to 1250 I'm keen to use what models I have, which sorta shaped the list above. It'd only cost me £10 to get the Balewind, I have everything else. I wouldn't use Anvilgard at that stage, unless it really is that good. In any case, I could drop the Reaper for a variety of different units that are part of Anvilgard if needed with the 120.

So in summary, remove the sorceress' artifact, make sure it's not Anvilgard and that 1250 is fine to play? 

So back to the original Q, how best should I flesh out the 1k list beyond the dragon, hydra and 2x5 Drakespawn?

I have 2 assassins, 1 sorceress, a chariot, a Fleetmaster, 20 spears, 5 dark riders, 2 bolt throwers, sorceress on drakespawn and a few other bits assembled (have 20 corsairs and 20 black guard unassembled too lol). 

Gut feeling is to use assassin and sorceress or two assassins. Opinions welcome! Trying to use what I already own whilst I wait (forever) for Malerion... 

[Kaleun]

The Anvilguard is a bonus that comes very cheap for the Order Serpentis and can potentially be very good. Even more it is a psychological trap for your enemy as your opponent will quickly fear getting surrounded by your fast units. Also you lack mortal wounds very very badly. The Anvilguard can help you with that.

Dont bother with the assassines. They are just underwhelming.

I would suggest you go for two list concepts around the 1000 point mark:

1) stationary + heavy shooting -> use the Scourge Privateer Corsairs as cheap screen and go all in with your Bolt Throwers

2) Anvilguard: Use the Order Serpentis units and its battalion to quickly try to encircle the enemy units and kill them in your hero phase.

either go for shooting or for the movement.

[syph0n]

Thanks @Kaleun. Have I understood fully that provided you have the correct battleline units and keywords, Anvilgard allows you to mix units a little more than the strict Order Serpentis lists? For example, you could take Corsairs and Drakespawn Knights as Battleline together under Anvilgard, because they're battleline in their respective factions? 

[Aezeal]

DoK are laughing at you guys and saying: who are the serpents NOW...

Just wanted to let you all know that

[Kaleun]

34 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

DoK are laughing at you guys and saying: who are the serpents NOW...

Just wanted to let you all know that

scaly allies :-)

[syph0n]

This gets me thinking. In a 1250 point list, I'm weighing up a Sorceress (and maybe Balewind, I'll at least try it) or ally a Medusa. The Medusa seems very strong, but it's a big jump in points. However, within 1250, choices are limited I guess anyway. Anyone have much experience allying a Medusa in?

/edit: Thinking thematically, this suits my army quite well too. 

[Kyriakin]

Head's up on the Sorceress on Drakespawn ^^

[syph0n]

Thanks Kyriakin. 

I do actually already own the Sorceress. I had planned to make her a Pegasus conversion, even made wings, but once the DE Peg was put to pasture in Compendium, it's hard to justify. It's a shame actually, as the model is really rather nice. It does mean I can only take her in an Order-only army or pay 100 pts to ally her in. Makes more sense unfortunately to take a regular sorceress to keep Anvilgard an option. 

Really wish they'd just stick her in Order Serpentis to give another bloody option!

[syph0n]

I know with the launch of DoK and now the Idoneth Deepkin the aelves on dinosaurs aren't so cool, but needing some advice on expanding to 2k, finishing off my Order Serpentis army and setting me free to new aelves. 

Train of thought is double dragon, double hydra Anvilgard. 3x5 drakespawn, a chariot, sorceress and Balewind Vortex and the Ebondrake Warhost. 

Now the choice of dragon... Allied sorceress or just another badass Dreadlord? Would probably magnetise either option. 

I already own everything bar the extra dragon and extra hydra. Would potentially be a cheap (financially) way to finish off the army centred around the lizard bois. 

Thoughts? Alternatively, thematically the Melusai, Khinerai and Medusa work well, but not sure how far 400 pts will effectively go. 

3rd option, buy 3 boxes of xbows for an Order list (Battleline) and then I can use 2x reaper bolt throwers, assassins, sorceress on drakespawn I have, giving me a bang on 2k list too. 

4th option, what could I do with either 20 Black Guard (old immense metal models) or 20 Corsairs, also going spare... 

Trying to not spend a fortune, money saved goes towards whatever next!

EDIT:

Here are two potential lists:

LIST1:

Allegiance: Anvilgard

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Legendary Fighter
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield
- Artefact : Relic Blade
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- Witch Rod
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
- Allies
Sorceress (80)
- Allies

Units
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 380 / 400
Leaders: 3/6 Battlelines: 4 (3+) Behemoths: 4/4 Artillery: 0/4
Wounds: 97

LIST 2:

Allegiance: Order
 

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Legendary Fighter
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield
- Artefact : Relic Blade
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
Sorceress (80)
- Allies

Units
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
- Allies
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
- Allies

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)
 

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400
Leaders: 3/6 Battlelines: 3 (3+) Behemoths: 4/4 Artillery: 0/4
Wounds: 107

In both cases I can swap the Balewind for a Chariot. In both lists I'd need to buy a dragon and a hydra. List 1 would mean 1 more box of Knights. List 2 would also be 2x boxes of Blood Sisters. It's more expensive financially, but they would also form the basis of a Daughters of Khaine army I guess.  Thoughts now? @Kaleun @Twitch of Izalith 

[Kyriakin]

(DELETE)

[Kyriakin]

On 16/04/2018 at 5:51 AM, syph0n said:

Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- Witch Rod
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
- Allies

I am not sure why Order Serpentis would ever take the SoBD, to be honest.

Even for many Darkling Covens players - whose hands are tied in terms of her being the high-wound option for general - she is seen as being over-costed, fragile and pretty "meh" at her supposed USP of magic (i.e. just one spell per turn, and a mediocre unique spell). Also, while she does admittedly have very good Command Traits and Artefact options for Darkling Covens allegiances in GHB17 (e.g. Impossibly Swift, Sustained by Misery, Shadowshroud Ring, etc.), you won't have access to any of these. In short, you get all the costs and few of the benefits of a non-general hero who is seen as not very good even with those benefits.

Furthermore, in order to get +2 to cast, you would probably consider throwing-in a throw-away DC unit of Bleakswords for sacrifices. However, this would cause you to max-out your allies quota and deny you a foot Sorceress - who does actually has some utility.

One of Order Serpentis's advantages over Darkling Covens is having the "good" black dragon (i.e. one you can throw into combat and expect it to not just evaporate), so it I believe it makes sense - both in terms of ability and allies quota - to get two of the DLoBD.

By the way, if you are considering the Sorceress+Vortex (180 points, 80 allies) for the -1 to Hit debuff, I would instead consider the Tempestors (220 points, 220 allies) as a more reliable and tougher option - albeit with less range (although with an extra 4" of movement to somewhat compensate). It literally works if you choose it to, with no need to roll dice or risk it being dispelled. You could then still grab a foot Sorceress (without a vortex) for Mystic Shield duties, which obviously requires less range.

On the Darkling Covens thread, I posted that these guys combine some of the aesthetics of Drakespawn (reptilian mount), Drakoths (bulky mount), Stormcasts (armour-clad rider) and Dark Elves (skinny rider). Just swap in a crossbow for the lance, and you are good to go (unless you exclusively need GW minis to play in stores, etc.):

[syph0n]

Thanks for replying @Kyriakin. I fully expected my posted to go unreplied to forevermore!

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

I am not sure why Order Serpentis would ever take the SoBD, to be honest.

Even for many Darkling Covens players - whose hands are tied in terms of her being the high-wound option for general - she is seen as being over-costed, fragile and pretty "meh" at her supposed USP of magic (i.e. just one spell per turn, and a mediocre unique spell). Also, while she does admittedly have very good Command Traits and Artefact options for Darkling Covens allegiances in GHB17 (e.g. Impossibly Swift, Sustained by Misery, Shadowshroud Ring, etc.), you won't have access to any of these. In short, you get all the costs and few of the benefits of a non-general hero who is seen as not very good even with those benefits.

Furthermore, in order to get +2 to cast, you would probably consider throwing-in a throw-away DC unit of Bleakswords for sacrifices. However, this would cause you to max-out your allies quota and deny you a foot Sorceress - who does actually has some utility.

One of Order Serpentis's advantages over Darkling Covens is having the "good" black dragon (i.e. one you can throw into combat and expect it to not just evaporate), so it I believe it makes sense - both in terms of ability and allies quota - to get two of the DLoBD.

I was just looking at adding in another magic user, maintaining the Anvilgard allegiance and being fluffy - another dragon is always good. I'm not precious over including a Sorceress if the Dreadlord is so significantly better.

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

By the way, if you are considering the Sorceress+Vortex (180 points, 80 allies) for the -1 to Hit debuff, I would instead consider the Tempestors (220 points, 220 allies) as a more reliable and tougher option - albeit with less range (although with an extra 4" of movement to somewhat compensate). It literally works if you choose it to, with no need to roll dice or risk it being dispelled. You could then still grab a foot Sorceress (without a vortex) for Mystic Shield duties, which obviously requires less range.

I've been looking at whether the Balewind is worth it or not full stop, it's just I wanted a cheap (financially) solution to buff my points values up a bit! I can replace it with a Chariot, but I don't know if they're all that powerful anyway. I'm keen to remain Dark Aelf only, as sad as that sounds I guess, but I will look at the Tempestors. This would also allow Anvilgard rules too (Stormcast). 

Final question I guess, is whether the Blood Sister list is a possible. That would give me two units towards a DoK list, so financially a sound idea, but that would mean loss of Anvilgard. On the plus side, they seem to be very tough, cause lots of MWs and look the part in context of my army. 

(By the way, money isn't an issue as such, but I don't want to buy models needlessly). 

EDIT:

Alternate list

Allegiance: Order
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Relic Blade
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance & Tyrant Shield
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
- Allies
Sorceress On Drakespawn (100)
- Allies
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
- Allies
War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 104
 

Toying with the idea of a Medusa. It's just occured to me that maybe can't use the Balewind, in which case I'd go back to using Blood Sisters instead. Could replace the Drakespawn Sorceress, but nice to use the model if poss and takes me to a round2k. 

[Kaleun]

I cant see why you wouldnt be able to take the Vortex. It is totally fine. You cant use the Sorceress on Drakespawn however. She doesnt have the OS Allegiance and therefore makes averything order and therefore you loose the Battleline units. Better replace her with a Chariot or a Darkling Coven Sorceress.

[syph0n]

Yes of course you're right, the 'exile' Aelves are mixed Order only. I'll replace with a regular Sorceress in that case. 

[someone2040]

10 hours ago, syph0n said:

Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
- Allies

Just want to make sure you're aware that the Medusa would not be able to take Mindrazor since your allegiance isn't Daughters of Khaine.

[syph0n]

Well spotted! Forgot to take that off when I was. Looking down the drop down on warscroll builder! 

[someone2040]

48 minutes ago, syph0n said:

Well spotted! Forgot to take that off when I was. Looking down the drop down on warscroll builder! 

Cool. Just wanted to make sure you weren't expecting some sneaky synergy or cool set of allies based on the fact she had that spell.

[JackStreicher]

I was thinking about building a mixed aelves Order List. Sadly Order Serpentis Lacks choice. So I intended to include a Dreadlord and a Dreadlord on Drakespawn - can I still use these in matched play with the Compendium Point values?

[JackStreicher]

For some reason I can‘t edit my post...

second question: is there a good alternative model for the black Dragon? (GWs looks like a obese snake with too small wings and a too big head)

[Gazebo]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:24 AM, JackStreicher said:

I was thinking about building a mixed aelves Order List. Sadly Order Serpentis Lacks choice. So I intended to include a Dreadlord and a Dreadlord on Drakespawn - can I still use these in matched play with the Compendium Point values?

I don't believe there's a definitive answer to that. It's up to game or tournament organizers to set rules whether Compendium pitched play profiles are allowed or not. There was plenty talking last year when some organizers prohibited compendiums.

Regarding dragon alternative models the only one worth considering I've seen is the Emperor Dragon from Creature Caster. Then again I kinda like the official one, it looks nicer in person than in photos and is also priced low.

[Kaleun]

-------------------------------------------- AoS 2 --------------------------------------------------

Friends,

I would like to present a 1500 point Order Serpentis for the use in AoS 2:

Allegiance: Anvilgard
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Shield
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Exile Blade & Shield
- Artefact: Dimensional Blade 
10 x Drakespawn Knights (280)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (80)
War Hydra (180)
Ebondrake Warhost (150)

Total: 1470 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 76

The two dragons are combat monsters, but with the two new items from Ulgu the get even stronger. The exile Blade wasnt super good in the past, but now with rend -3 it becomes great. Also beeing able to cast the Dreadlords Command ability more then once is so so good!! The Doppelganger cloak is a life saver for the general and makes him strike at full strenghts during the first turns. If we charge in turn two we can cast the Command ability three times for 3 CP. Put it on the two dragons and the 10 Knight unit. 

Clearly the weakness of the army is objective control. This must be compensated via the implacable march which enables our army to throw the enemy units off of an mission objective. 

Second weakness is speed! Might be controversial on a cavalry army, but in Age of Sigmar there are so many units with infinity movement capabilities (teleport). The Chariot and the large hydra must be used for zoning altough they might do a poor job at it. The Chariots are also very cheap and trusty units for either triggering the implacable march (pincer move) or might be used as blocker in front of the two dragons which provide the most combat strength.

Third weakness is the lack of mortal wounds. We will do great against soft targets, but not so well on super good saves.

The realms shall tremble before such magnitude of Malerions kin.

[Alessio]

On 7/17/2018 at 4:21 PM, Kaleun said:

-------------------------------------------- AoS 2 --------------------------------------------------

Friends,

I would like to present a 1500 point Order Serpentis for the use in AoS 2:

Allegiance: Anvilgard
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Shield
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Exile Blade & Shield
- Artefact: Dimensional Blade 
10 x Drakespawn Knights (280)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (80)
War Hydra (180)
Ebondrake Warhost (150)

Total: 1470 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 76

The two dragons are combat monsters, but with the two new items from Ulgu the get even stronger. The exile Blade wasnt super good in the past, but now with rend -3 it becomes great. Also beeing able to cast the Dreadlords Command ability more then once is so so good!! The Doppelganger cloak is a life saver for the general and makes him strike at full strenghts during the first turns. If we charge in turn two we can cast the Command ability three times for 3 CP. Put it on the two dragons and the 10 Knight unit. 

Clearly the weakness of the army is objective control. This must be compensated via the implacable march which enables our army to throw the enemy units off of an mission objective. 

Second weakness is speed! Might be controversial on a cavalry army, but in Age of Sigmar there are so many units with infinity movement capabilities (teleport). The Chariot and the large hydra must be used for zoning altough they might do a poor job at it. The Chariots are also very cheap and trusty units for either triggering the implacable march (pincer move) or might be used as blocker in front of the two dragons which provide the most combat strength.

Third weakness is the lack of mortal wounds. We will do great against soft targets, but not so well on super good saves.

The realms shall tremble before such magnitude of Malerions kin.

As a fan of dark elves and so order serpentis too I'd like the idea to play them as its own faction, but I've been  playing many times the drakespawn knights and I found them really too weak, rarely I made any good damage and this is bad when that is your only unit that is not a chariot or a monster and that demotivated me for playing them. I think 140p are still to high for what they actually do, there is no comparison with the dragon blades (140p same points but they have +1 attack,+ movement and immune to battleshock if nearby a OD hero).

I see you took the trait legendary fighter, Is it possible to choose the OS allegiance(bonus OS battelines) and at the same time the command traits of generic Order?

I'd like to ask you also if you've tried your list already, and also why not taking allies,  they can be very useful for  a faction like OS for lacking of magic, infantry etc.  

[Verminlord]

I've had a box of cold one knights sitting in my closet since I started the hobby. I've been messing around with lists to finally make something of them. What do you guys think about these?

Allegiance: Anvilguard/ Order Serpentis
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance & Tyrant Shield
Sorceress (100)
- Allies
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
2 x Drakespawn Chariots (160)
Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 100 / 200

Couldn't fit a whole lot of allies into 1k thanks to the new super limiting 1 ally per 4 rule. Wizards are more important this edition so that's what I went with.

Allegiance: Anvilguard/ Order Serpentis
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance & Tyrant Shield
Knight Incantor (140) - Allies
10 x Drakespawn Knights (280)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (140)

Drakespawn Chariots (80)

Drakespawn Chariots (80)

20 x Darkshards (200)- Allies

War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)

Cronomatic Cogs (60)
Ebondrake Warhost (150)
Total: 1950 / 2000
Allies: 340 / 400

Knight Incantor provides a dispel scroll and access to Cogs. Cogs give our cav more movement to surround the enemy and activate the Anvilguard ability.  Darkshards are there to provide bodies to sit on objectives and get free hits on agressors without having to charge; even more so if the Anvilguard ability goes off. I'm still not sure if I shouldn't take bleakswords  or Spears instead for the more reliable damage though.

[Alessio]

2 hours ago, Verminlord said:

I've had a box of cold one knights sitting in my closet since I started the hobby. I've been messing around with lists to finally make something of them. What do you guys think about these?

Allegiance: Anvilguard/ Order Serpentis
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance & Tyrant Shield
Sorceress (100)
- Allies
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
2 x Drakespawn Chariots (160)
Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 100 / 200

Couldn't fit a whole lot of allies into 1k thanks to the new super limiting 1 ally per 4 rule. Wizards are more important this edition so that's what I went with.

Allegiance: Anvilguard/ Order Serpentis
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance & Tyrant Shield
Knight Incantor (140) - Allies
10 x Drakespawn Knights (280)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)

Drakespawn Chariots (80)

Drakespawn Chariots (80)

20 x Darkshards (200)- Allies

War Hydra (200)
War Hydra (200)

Cronomatic Cogs (60)
Ebondrake Warhost (150)
Total: 1950 / 2000
Allies: 340 / 400

Knight Incantor provides a dispel scroll and access to Cogs. Cogs give our cav more movement to surround the enemy and activate the Anvilguard ability.  Darkshards are there to provide bodies to sit on objectives and get free hits on agressors without having to charge; even more so if the Anvilguard ability goes off. I'm still not sure if I shouldn't take bleakswords  or Spears instead for the more reliable damage though.

Drakespawn knights are 140p and not 160. But from my experience they hit too weakly

[Kaleun]

On 7/19/2018 at 7:42 PM, Alessio said:

As a fan of dark elves and so order serpentis too I'd like the idea to play them as its own faction, but I've been  playing many times the drakespawn knights and I found them really too weak, rarely I made any good damage and this is bad when that is your only unit that is not a chariot or a monster and that demotivated me for playing them. I think 140p are still to high for what they actually do, there is no comparison with the dragon blades (140p same points but they have +1 attack,+ movement and immune to battleshock if nearby a OD hero).

I see you took the trait legendary fighter, Is it possible to choose the OS allegiance(bonus OS battelines) and at the same time the command traits of generic Order?

I'd like to ask you also if you've tried your list already, and also why not taking allies,  they can be very useful for  a faction like OS for lacking of magic, infantry etc.  

Yes of course. You choose from the order artefacts, the order traits and the other stuff you get from your choice of a realm. Also possible in combination with the Anvilguard.

Actually that one is a piece of theory-hammering. I have the models and will take them for a "ride" in the near future. 

Magic would be great, expecially the Chronomatic cogs or the portals would help a lot. The Sorceress on foot however is super slow and will fall back compared to the other units. 

The Drakespawn Knights arent bad per se!! Actually they put out a lot of wounds!! They must attack however. But we are playing dark elves and no pesky bretonnians. Our Knights need the charge absolutly. Implacable March helps with that.