Let`s chat: Anvilguard

[Kaleun]

Hi Folks,

the new campaign system Firestorm for AoS is in the way and with it new allegiance abilities.  The Anvilguard's Implacable March is the one I found most interesting.

Anvilgard armies are made up of some of the hardier, more ruthless armies of Order, drawing from the Stormcast Eternals, Free Peoples, Devoted of Sigmar, Dispossessed, Darkling Covens, Scourge Privateers and Order Serpentis.

Very exciting is the Battalion of the Scourge Privateers the "Realm Reavers". Here is a example army list:

Allegiance: Anvilguard

Leaders
Black Ark Fleetmaster (40)

Battleline
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blades & Wicked Cutlasses
- Scourge Privateers Battleline
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blades & Repeater Handbows
- Scourge Privateers Battleline
2 x Scourgerunner Chariots (200)
- Scourge Privateers Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Behemoths
Kharibdyss (180)

Battalions
Realm Reavers (180)

Total: 1240/2000

Sadly we cant fit the Realm Reavers in a Allied Detachement, but some fast Drakespawn Knights made it in. The battalion rule says:

A Black Ark Fleetmaster, 2 Black Ark Corsairs units, an unit of Scourgerunner Chariots and a Kharibdiss.

Feared Taskmaster: In your hero phase a battalion unit within 8" of the Fleetmaster can do one of the following; move as if it were the movement phase (not run), shoot as if it were the shooting phase, charge as if it were the charge phase, or if there are any enemy units within 3" pile in and attack as if were the combat phase.

Capture That Beast!: Re-roll wound rolls of 1 against Monsters.

...During our hero phase the enemy is forced to move 6" away from us (on a roll of 5+ that means 1/3 of the enemy units engaged are affected), but at the same time the Feared Taskmaster lets the Realm Reavers charge after the enemy. We cant do that immediately after the 6" move, but it can be used to encircle the enemy.
Things get interesting with flying Units like dragons though, which can encricle the enemy easier.

Whats your thoughts and armylists with the Anvilguard allegiance?

Kaleun

 

-> some teleporting Stormcast might be brutal in a Anvilguard armylist

 

 

[stato]

I think the probablility of pulling it off is pretty low, but on a double turn maybe? I think if its going to happen it will be nearer the end of the game when both sides are lower on models and forces are pulled close together over objectives. Waiting on the double though would put you in a perilous position if you did not get the turn.  

What it does do is make the enemy worry about its lines of retreat, where normally they might be trying to punch through you lines to maximise base contact and number of attacks, they may now bunch up a bit more on the attack and spread out with other models, in order to maintain some ground they can retreat into.

As a dispossessed player id have some strong holding units, once i could trust would last when charged, then support those with faster units like Prosecutors.  Ranged units like crossbows would become more versatile as they could venture out with a bit more security that the enemy couldnt just grind them down as a unit of 30 would easily surround any weaker units sent to deal with them.

I think overall this ability works well with a solid back line and a range of skirmishing units.  Should be fun and a little disruptive to the usual tactics for dealing with gunline order.

 

[Aezeal]

I think it's a bit of an overpowered ability in a game where there are fixed places with objective.. you can't really defend agains this.

[boombyeyeah]

Vanguard Wing with 30 Liberators can easily surround half an army, cant wait to test it!

[WABBIT]

Blimey, I thought Kunnin Ruk was bad. Who will want to play against that? Its Auto kill anything in combat with you. Thats insane, Who at GW thought that was a good idea?  

Fix the forgotten armies and stop introducing ridiculously OP rules for stuff that doesn't need it.

[GammaMage]

It's not really autokill, because you have to roll a 5 or 6, and they can likely get everything away with the 6" move unless you manage to surround them. And then you have a (admittedly small) chance to fail a charge to get back into combat.

[WABBIT]

9 hours ago, GammaMage said:

It's not really autokill, because you have to roll a 5 or 6, and they can likely get everything away with the 6" move unless you manage to surround them. And then you have a (admittedly small) chance to fail a charge to get back into combat.

So a 33% of moving only 6" away is not good odds of escape and you can easily box in units so if they do manage to run they still get wiped out, whatever is left will flee to battle shock. Multi Wound, non-monster units will not stand a chance. OP rules to get our attention are a worrying trend with AoS. At least you don't have to roll 320 dice every hero phase.

Edited September 21, 2017 by WABBIT

[Aelfric]

Eternal Guard with Fortress of Boughs up can't move and will therefore die to the last Aelf.

[Aezeal]

On 21-9-2017 at 9:00 AM, GammaMage said:

It's not really autokill, because you have to roll a 5 or 6, and they can likely get everything away with the 6" move unless you manage to surround them. And then you have a (admittedly small) chance to fail a charge to get back into combat.

It might not be auto-kill.. but it is a nearly auto-clear of objectives.. which is about as bad in objective based games.

[Aezeal]

23 hours ago, WABBIT said:

So a 33% of moving only 6" away is not good odds of escape and you can easily box in units so if they do manage to run they still get wiped out, whatever is left will flee to battle shock. Multi Wound, non-monster units will not stand a chance. OP rules to get our attention are a worrying trend with AoS. At least you don't have to roll 320 dice every hero phase.

I don't think the effect hits if you don't roll a 5 or 6 btw. 

[WABBIT]

22 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I don't think the effect hits if you don't roll a 5 or 6 btw. 

Oh yeah good point. It is not clear enough in my view. It only states when to autokill models. it doesn't say only if they run do you attempt to auto kill them. Until its FAQ'd people will assume you're dead if you don't roll 5 or 6 and probably still dead if you do  If it only applies IF the enemy rolls a 5 or 6 then it's not as bad as I had thought and is probably ok but its really easy to surround foes in a game where everything moves mega fast.  it's still OP. I wouldn't enjoy using it or facing it, it's a nonsense ability. It means dark elves could basically trample Kurnoth hunters into the dust....erm? Really  I don't think so.

Edited September 22, 2017 by WABBIT

[BunkhouseBuster]

1 hour ago, WABBIT said:

Oh yeah good point. It is not clear enough in my view. It only states when to autokill models. it doesn't say only if they run do you attempt to auto kill them. Until its FAQ'd people will assume you're dead if you don't roll 5 or 6 and probably still dead if you do  If it only applies IF the enemy rolls a 5 or 6 then it's not as bad as I had thought and is probably ok but its really easy to surround foes in a game where everything moves mega fast.  it's still OP. I wouldn't enjoy using it or facing it, it's a nonsense ability. It means dark elves could basically trample Kurnoth hunters into the dust....erm? Really  I don't think so.

I just had a nasty thought - what about surrounding an enemy model completely through pile-ins and charge moves?  Sure, you can't wipe out Monsters, but you can still use this to try and take out enemy Heroes or small units.  Might even be a safe way to deal with Khorne Wrathmongers

[Lecfast]

It isn't reliable ( being a one in three chance), but works as more of a threat. It will clear objectives though, as people will fear it.

On a separate note, no one will use this to make corsairs playable but rather will take the already good stormcast and other factions... I don't particularly like these rules as they unbalance some armies.

[GammaMage]

On 9/22/2017 at 6:10 PM, WABBIT said:

Oh yeah good point. It is not clear enough in my view. It only states when to autokill models. it doesn't say only if they run do you attempt to auto kill them. Until its FAQ'd people will assume you're dead if you don't roll 5 or 6 and probably still dead if you do  If it only applies IF the enemy rolls a 5 or 6 then it's not as bad as I had thought and is probably ok but its really easy to surround foes in a game where everything moves mega fast.  it's still OP. I wouldn't enjoy using it or facing it, it's a nonsense ability. It means dark elves could basically trample Kurnoth hunters into the dust....erm? Really  I don't think so.

Wait what? How can you possibly read it as autokilling all the time? It says "If you roll a 5 or 6 the enemy unit must make a 6" move. After this move is completed, any enemy models (except MONSTERS) from that unit that are within 3" of an Anvilgard model are slain." I'm not sure how much clearer that can be. Either you roll a 5 or 6 and that happens, or you don't, and it doesn't happen.

[Aelfric]

Having thought about it, I have come to the conclusion that it is not overpowered.  It happens in the Anvilgard hero phase, so setting up a blocking strategy is entirely dependant on getting the double turn or hoping to keep the enemy penned in for two rounds of combat.  It also is compulsory, so a clever enemy  could use it to their advantage; for example as they are not restricted in the direction they need to go they can arrange their charges to maybe gain extra movement - say towards or onto an objective. If your opponent knows it's a possibility, they can plan to mitigate it.  They could tie your units up by sacrificing one of theirs - it's not OP but another optional tactic that requires thought and finesse.

[Kaleun]

I would also say the Anvilguard Implacable March is by no means overpowered.

1) you need to set up your army list with both sturdy and fast units;
2) if you wrap around 3 units, only one will be statistical affected by the ability
3) It really depends on your units close positioning to kill some models of the enemy

I guess in general the ability is a good way for massed order armies to deal with elite forces with a few multiwound models. You can make your Scourge Privateers work against beastclaw Raiders of Stormcast Eternals (Dracoth-Spam).

[angrycontra]

The problem with this ability (and every other firestorm ability) is that even when it's unreliable, it's strong bonus ability with no clear drawback. This ability can be insane when combined with SCE units like prosecutors, who'll jump behind the enemy units. Then you just survive to next turn (easy with stormcasts) and get 1 lucky roll and whoops there goes your expensive unit. Not to mention the whole "force enemies out of objectives"-bs.

I've said this in multiple threads but I'll say it here again. There are 2 reasons why I dislike firestorm abilities and believe they'll ruin this game if they're accepted into regular tournament standard: First of all, they're unnecessary power boosts for armies that don't need any power boosts. People being all excited about ability that could aid their low tier mixed order force while stormcast player is rubbing their hands together with evil glint in their eyes. Secondly, not all armies get any bonus allegiances. I don't see any excited seraphom, ogor, skaven, brayherd, deathlords, nighthaunt (they get ability but it is very redundant with what they already have) and couple others discussing about their awesome new abilities 'cos guess what, they don't get any. If gw wants to add new abilities, fine, just add it to every faction there is, because the power of these abilities is strong enough to make certain armies completely disappear from tournaments.

[Kaleun]

4 hours ago, angrycontra said:

The problem with this ability (and every other firestorm ability) is that even when it's unreliable, it's strong bonus ability with no clear drawback. This ability can be insane when combined with SCE units like prosecutors, who'll jump behind the enemy units. Then you just survive to next turn (easy with stormcasts) and get 1 lucky roll and whoops there goes your expensive unit. Not to mention the whole "force enemies out of objectives"-bs.

I've said this in multiple threads but I'll say it here again. There are 2 reasons why I dislike firestorm abilities and believe they'll ruin this game if they're accepted into regular tournament standard: First of all, they're unnecessary power boosts for armies that don't need any power boosts. People being all excited about ability that could aid their low tier mixed order force while stormcast player is rubbing their hands together with evil glint in their eyes. Secondly, not all armies get any bonus allegiances. I don't see any excited seraphom, ogor, skaven, brayherd, deathlords, nighthaunt (they get ability but it is very redundant with what they already have) and couple others discussing about their awesome new abilities 'cos guess what, they don't get any. If gw wants to add new abilities, fine, just add it to every faction there is, because the power of these abilities is strong enough to make certain armies completely disappear from tournaments.

Well actually GW is on the way to give those factions abilities which didnt receive one in the Generals Handbook II. You are right about the Stormcast though. They are already super strong and shouldnt have every unit of order as allies and really get everything. So what, if they take the Anvilguard Allegiance they miss all the cool stuff from their battletome. Time will tell, but I am sure GW thought well about this release.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

4 hours ago, angrycontra said:

The problem with this ability (and every other firestorm ability) is that even when it's unreliable, it's strong bonus ability with no clear drawback. This ability can be insane when combined with SCE units like prosecutors, who'll jump behind the enemy units. Then you just survive to next turn (easy with stormcasts) and get 1 lucky roll and whoops there goes your expensive unit. Not to mention the whole "force enemies out of objectives"-bs.

I've said this in multiple threads but I'll say it here again. There are 2 reasons why I dislike firestorm abilities and believe they'll ruin this game if they're accepted into regular tournament standard: First of all, they're unnecessary power boosts for armies that don't need any power boosts. People being all excited about ability that could aid their low tier mixed order force while stormcast player is rubbing their hands together with evil glint in their eyes. Secondly, not all armies get any bonus allegiances. I don't see any excited seraphom, ogor, skaven, brayherd, deathlords, nighthaunt (they get ability but it is very redundant with what they already have) and couple others discussing about their awesome new abilities 'cos guess what, they don't get any. If gw wants to add new abilities, fine, just add it to every faction there is, because the power of these abilities is strong enough to make certain armies completely disappear from tournaments.

 

Except it's not. Unless you're going for massive blobs of prosecutors, you'll not wrap ANYONE. Furthermore even then you need to endure somewhere 1 to 2 activations of enemy combat, quite possible a shooting phase if you lose the roll-off.  And let's remember: prosecutors just have 2 wounds a piece. THEN you need to get that lucky roll of 5+ and THEN you need to be sure the enemy just didn't kill enough models. then MAYBE you'll get to kill a pair of enemy models.  And that's IF you don't lose initiative AND got to go second.  This is not unreliable, this is the epitome of circumstancial.

Stormcasts are the least suited army to use anvilguard. Sure they have fast movers, but they don't have the bodies.

[angrycontra]

59 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

Well actually GW is on the way to give those factions abilities which didnt receive one in the Generals Handbook II. You are right about the Stormcast though. They are already super strong and shouldnt have every unit of order as allies and really get everything. So what, if they take the Anvilguard Allegiance they miss all the cool stuff from their battletome. Time will tell, but I am sure GW thought well about this release.

Actually gw already confirmed that these new allegiances allow you to take them on top of faction specific allegiances. So yes, you can take any artifacts, prayers etc. From SCE tome plus that 3+ deep strike and then take one of these bonus allegiances (just search for that hammerhal showcase they made couple days ago, they say it there). That's the main reason I'm complaining about this. If this was just bonus on mixed allegiances, well I'd still dislike the whole system, but would probably just be real meh about it. 

Now it could be that the community team is just talking out of their ****** and everything I say here is proven wrong, but I still think it's seriously bad if people start actively taking these "town allegiances" to tournament (and obviously if tournaments are ok with them), because it will likely cause split in community and in country where I live, last thing I want is more split 'cause finding any proper aos players here is difficult.

[Twitch of Izalith]

Yeah implacable march is very situational but could throw up some opportunistic advantages. 

Its biggest benefit is being able to potentially get your missile troops out of combat for a game turn and for driving units off objectives.

[Kaleun]

I tried to make a pure Cav. Armylist out with the Anvilguard Allegiance. What do you think about it? Fast enough to get behind the enemy?

Allegiance: Order Serpentis

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion

Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (100)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Units
10 x Dark Riders (240)
- Allies

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Allies: 240 / 400
 

.) The Hydra should be used as an Anvil
.) Dark Riders are super fast and can grab objectives of rush behind enemy units
.) The battalion makes this an 2 drop army and impoves the chances for the much needed double turn. It is expensive however, but the reroll 1s to wound is good

[Uncas]

22 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

I tried to make a pure Cav. Armylist out with the Anvilguard Allegiance. What do you think about it? Fast enough to get behind the enemy?

Allegiance: Order Serpentis

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion

Battleline
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (100)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Units
10 x Dark Riders (240)
- Allies

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Allies: 240 / 400
 

.) The Hydra should be used as an Anvil
.) Dark Riders are super fast and can grab objectives of rush behind enemy units
.) The battalion makes this an 2 drop army and impoves the chances for the much needed double turn. It is expensive however, but the reroll 1s to wound is good

Cool list! However, are you sure you can include the dark riders in the Anvilgard list? I know they can be order serpentis allies, but shadowblades aren't one of the listed factions that can use Anvilgard abilities. 

Also, that extra charge you can get in the hero phase from the ebondrake warhost could be useful for an extra movement to try and wrap around enemies before you use the Anvilgard ability

[GammaMage]

Been wondering myself, do the city alliances allow for allied detachments, or does every model in my force have to match Anvilguard? If I can't take any Khaine units, I'm probably gonna convert my Witch Elves using the Sisters of Slaughter shields and then play them as female Bleakswords.

Edited September 25, 2017 by GammaMage
spelling

[Kaleun]

59 minutes ago, Uncas said:

Cool list! However, are you sure you can include the dark riders in the Anvilgard list? I know they can be order serpentis allies, but shadowblades aren't one of the listed factions that can use Anvilgard abilities. 

Also, that extra charge you can get in the hero phase from the ebondrake warhost could be useful for an extra movement to try and wrap around enemies before you use the Anvilgard ability

well the Generals Handbook states on page 76:
"Allied units can have different allegiance to the rest of the army."

So we should be totally fine with some Shadowblade allies here. :-)

 

We can also easily change this into a 2000 point army:

Anvilguard - 3 drop army - Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Defense
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion

Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Artefact : Relic Blade

Units
10 x Drakespawn Knights (320)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (100)
10 x Dark Riders (240)
- Allies
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Battalions
Ebondrake Warhost (160)

Reinforcement Points (0)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 240 / 400

Leaders: 2/6 Battlelines: 4 (3+) Behemoths: 3/4 Artillery: 0/4

Edited September 25, 2017 by Kaleun