Weirdnob Shaman - Power of the Waaagh! - How do you play this?

[Chris Tomlin]

Afternoon all,

I'm just intrigued to see how my fellow Ironjawz players are playing this rule. I have always played it one way and one way only (actually I may have got it wrong for the very first few games tbh before noticing the quirk!), which is the first option. In my mind this is 100% correct and not even up for debate (regardless of intent) as we know a model is always within range of itself.

However I was just wondering if anyone plays it differently. My above comments are not meant to influence voting and I would ask that you respond honestly. Please post your thoughts if you do allocate the mortal wounds to another unit other than the Shaman. I have seen some comments on the forum referring to this, so I know there are players out there doing it  

Chris

[Aginor]

My stance on this: I am very sure it wasn't intended to be like this, but the rules as written clearly say that only the shaman himself can take the wounds.

Same like with the Waagh, when you count the units you always count the Megaboss himself. Probably not intended.

That being said: I'd absolutely allow an Ironjawz player to allocate the wounds to another Orruk unit than the shaman.

[Chris Tomlin]

From the main rules FAQ;

Q: Is a unit within range of itself?
A: Yes.

So it's clearly a rules interaction they are very much aware of.

[tom_gore]

The wording clearly indicates they mean another unit than the shaman himself, but yeah - RAW dictates it would be the shaman taking the hit.

Probably should get an errata. Wording should be changed to just simply say the shaman takes the wounds, or the nearest unit that's not the shaman takes the wounds.

[Malakree]

The way I play it is that it allocates it to the closest other orruk unless there aren't any in which case he allocates it to himself.

That would be the interpretation of the spirit of the rules rather than the letter imo.

[Aginor]

24 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The way I play it is that it allocates it to the closest other orruk unless there aren't any in which case he allocates it to himself.

That would be the interpretation of the spirit of the rules rather than the letter imo.

Yep, that's what they meant. Now if they also wrote it that way that would be awesome because right now it is impossible if you take their FAQ and rules as written.

[Malakree]

19 minutes ago, Aginor said:

Yep, that's what they meant. Now if they also wrote it that way that would be awesome because right now it is impossible if you take their FAQ and rules as written.

Establish with the tourney organiser or your opponent before hand.

If they force the letter of the law take daubing of mork and have a 6+ ward save vs any mortal wounds he puts on himself!

[Sangfroid]

I play it that the closest other unit (other than the shaman) takes the hit based on the fury of Gork book where Gordrakk notes his shaman popping other orruks heads when they get all up close and comfy. 

I also do not apply the D3 mortal wounds if there are not 10+ models within 10" even if I roll a double to cast 

strangley I also do not count the shaman himself as part of the 10...... come to think of it that's probably wrong as well

[BunkhouseBuster]

To be honest, I have never once remembered that part of the ability.  Aside from the infrequency of successfully casting ANY spell (never have cast Foot of Gork...) even with the bonus, I just never think of it.  It's not like I'm maliciously forgetting a rule in my favor, buts it's just one of those things that my brain has trouble remembering.  I think that if it were a separate rule, then maybe I would remember it easier, but anyways.

Rules as written, I could see it going either way, since it says "CLOSEST" Unit.  Something cannot be "close" to itself, it IS itself.  Sure, a model is always within range of itself (unless it is a 1-dimensional object moving in a second dimension).  But by referencing the word "closest", it implies that it goes to a different Unit.  Heck, with that, I'm starting to think that the Weird-nob might not even take that damage even if there were no other models in that range.

Plus, if it was intended that the Weird-nob be the one to take the damage, wouldn't they have just written it that way?

And reading it again, I'm also picking up that the damage on doubles would only come up if there are 20 or more Orruk models in range; that "However" is throwing me off.

We need an errata/FAQ on this worse that I realized...

[Aginor]

18 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

To be honest, I have never once remembered that part of the ability.  Aside from the infrequency of successfully casting ANY spell (never have cast Foot of Gork...) even with the bonus, I just never think of it.  It's not like I'm maliciously forgetting a rule in my favor, buts it's just one of those things that my brain has trouble remembering.  I think that if it were a separate rule, then maybe I would remember it easier, but anyways.

Rules as written, I could see it going either way, since it says "CLOSEST" Unit.  Something cannot be "close" to itself, it IS itself.  Sure, a model is always within range of itself (unless it is a 1-dimensional object moving in a second dimension).  But by referencing the word "closest", it implies that it goes to a different Unit.  Heck, with that, I'm starting to think that the Weird-nob might not even take that damage even if there were no other models in that range.

Plus, if it was intended that the Weird-nob be the one to take the damage, wouldn't they have just written it that way?

And reading it again, I'm also picking up that the damage on doubles would only come up if there are 20 or more Orruk models in range; that "However" is throwing me off.

We need an errata/FAQ on this worse that I realized...

Good points actually.

[Chris Tomlin]

Very very interesting results and replies,

I'm surprised so many people play under the assumption they know what the rules writers intended! Whilst in this particular case I would be inclined to agree, its a slippery slope, no?

@Sangfroid - I cannot believe you would use a passage from a novel to back up a rules interpretation!! I'm sure that was a joke, but it worries me that people may read that and think it is ok to do so given your status as a well respected good player!! haha!  

I would love an FAQ here clarifying the position. Mostly as I'm confident it would be ruled "in our favour". However in lieu of that I struggle to see how I could play it as anything other than option 1 above  

I think I might drop an e-mail tomorrow.

[Aginor]

45 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Very very interesting results and replies,

I'm surprised so many people play under the assumption they know what the rules writers intended! Whilst in this particular case I would be inclined to agree, its a slippery slope, no?

@Sangfroid - I cannot believe you would use a passage from a novel to back up a rules interpretation!! I'm sure that was a joke, but it worries me that people may read that and think it is ok to do so given your status as a well respected good player!! haha!  

I would love an FAQ here clarifying the position. Mostly as I'm confident it would be ruled "in our favour". However in lieu of that I struggle to see how I could play it as anything other than option 1 above  

I think I might drop an e-mail tomorrow.

I think it isn't too much of a stretch to assume they couldn't mean the shaman can just hit himself. If they had meant that they would have written "the shaman suffers d3 wounds". In that case it is just logic.

You are still right, in other cases such assumptions should not that easily be made.

[Chris Tomlin]

1 minute ago, Aginor said:

I think it isn't too much of a stretch to assume they couldn't mean the shaman can just hit himself. If they had meant that they would have written "the shaman suffers d3 wounds". In that case it is just logic.

You are still right, in other cases such assumptions should not that easily be made.

You are quite correct I believe. I'm certainly not denying the (dare I say obvious) intent.

[Sangfroid]

@Chris Tomlin yes it was a little bit of fun though if you guys haven't read it you all should it's excellent and features my second favourite guys the Astral Templars! 

My reasoning really is the same as @BunkhouseBuster but here's a bit more of an explanation 

basically "within x inches" to me includes the model because in my head it's an imaginary circle x" in radius around the point of origin (so the Megaboss waaagh abilty includes the Megaboss) 

whereas "the closest x unit" to me is a linear descriptive so essentially point A to point B (or in case of multiple options which point is closer to A, Point B or Point C and so on...) therefore it cannot be the shaman in this instance because it the distance between 2 distinct points. 

This was why I never counted the shaman as one of the 10 models AND then realised above that the wording is 10 models within (so technically I should include the shaman as one of the 10/20) 

hope that makes sense it would be far easier to explainon a table or speak it directly 

[Garxia]

Another question is if you're not in range of other orruks and don't get the buff, should you take the wounds?

[Sangfroid]

1 minute ago, Garxia said:

Another question is if you're not in range of other orruks and don't get the buff, should you take the wounds?

100% no, as the rule state you get the buff with orruk in range it also includes the second part of wounds so no first part no second part

[Chris Tomlin]

1 minute ago, Garxia said:

Another question is if you're not in range of other orruks and don't get the buff, should you take the wounds?

Interesting. I'd not actually considered that tbh! The wording is a little strange isn't it?

I see where you are coming from @Sangfroid, does the terminology "closest" appear elsewhere in the game out of interest?

[Gumbalina]

I have used the ability the same way as option 1 but if in base contact with another unit which would count as the closest?

Normal precident is the owner chooses which means to me he has to hold hands to not kill himself

[BunkhouseBuster]

7 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Interesting. I'd not actually considered that tbh! The wording is a little strange isn't it?

I thought it was WEIRD myself

 

8 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I see where you are coming from @Sangfroid, does the terminology "closest" appear elsewhere in the game out of interest?

I don't recall seeing "closest" anywhere else in a Warscroll, at least not in any Dispossessed, Warherds, or Slaves to Darkness.

[Sangfroid]

12 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Interesting. I'd not actually considered that tbh! The wording is a little strange isn't it?

I see where you are coming from @Sangfroid, does the terminology "closest" appear elsewhere in the game out of interest?

Had to do a bit of a warscroll search, but it's there in Scylla Anfingrimms "Bestial leap" abilty 

[Chris Tomlin]

I have to be honest, the distinction between within and closest is intriguing. Just call me Fox.

I want to believe

[Sangfroid]

In fact it's there in the 4 page rules under pile in!!!! 

[DeadlySarcasm]

No matter how you choose to interpret it, its a terrible rule which is the reason I no longer run him in my lists, too unreliable and just randomly hurts me for very minimal gain.

On topic though, i have always played it that he does D3 wounds to himself, as he will always be the closest Ironjawz unit to himself.

[RuneBrush]

Of course to muddy the water even more...  If the casting or unbinding roll is a double, that doesn't actually make sense as the casting roll is the sum of two dice plus modifiers

I would say though that reading the description in it's entirety means that if there aren't 10+ Orruks within 10" then the "However" statement (probably) doesn't happen.

(yes I'm being pedantic and not 100% serious with my first sentance, I think this warscroll is certainly one that falls into the somewhat inconsistently written category).

[Ollie Grimwood]

I think using a passage from a novel is the perfect way to interpret rules, especially a really good one like Fury of Gork.  ✊? Narrative to the max siblings.