Abilities used outside battlefield

[Alaund]

Hi there, I am trying to get my head around one of the FAQ rulings.

Quote

 

Q: Can models set up somewhere other than the battlefield (in the Celestial Realm, for example) use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can use abilities or command abilities.

 

 

That does seem understandable in the context of the '[...] ... to affect other units'. However if I try to read the answer alone, it makes me wonder how it is applicable to different abilities and the type of abilities out there (sort of like: activated, passive, targeted, etc.)

For example, let's take the Celestant-Prime warscroll's ability:

Quote

Retribution from On High: Instead of setting up the Celestant-Prime on the battlefield, you must place him to one side and say that he is set up in the Celestial Realm. In each of your movement phases you must declare whether he will strike from the heavens or remain in the Celestial Realm [...]

At what time does this ability is activated? At the set-up? Technically speaking, can I even use my Prime's ability to get back while he is  off the battlefield in the ?elestial Realm

If that's not the case (I'd guess) then is the ability treated as a 'combined effect'? Meaning, activated at the set-up as sort of 'passive' ability and thanks to that, I can finish off the effect while I'm off the battlefield?

[Squirrelmaster]

I would tend to assume that if an ability is implicitly used by off-the-table units, that overrides the FAQ. A rule that has you put the unit to one side instead of placing it on the table, then bring that unit on later, would fall into this category.

Ripperdactyl Riders wouldn't.

I get that there feels like a distinction between abilities that a model "uses" and passive abilities that "just are", but I don't see any rules basis for that distinction as of now.

I'm not sure I see the point of the Slaan one — even if it did "trigger", it only lasts as long as you have a Slaan on the table, right? So if you don't have any on the table, the effect never applies.

[Nico]

No - the Q&A format proves my point. Answers routinely go beyond the scope of the question to illustrate a general point (as here). They don't confine themselves artificially to the scope of the question.

[tokek]

19 minutes ago, Nico said:

Nice try. Dealt with this already on Twitter. The answer is twofold. First there's a direct answer to the question. "No." Then there's a statement of a black and white principle. Not on table - no abilities.

It's not reasonable to misconstrue the answer by reference to the question when it's very clear that other answers are deliberately broader than the question (sometimes massively broader).

Here's the single most important FAQ answer for example - again quick direct answer then a general principle.

It would also be absurd if the Lord Celestant could buff himself with his Command Ability from off the table - but not other units - which is what your position leads to.

Trying to argue that would not nerf Rippers is also dubious - one of the worst designed units in the game - they had to be comped at independent events and then by the Rules of One as an auto-delete.

 

As I said the distinction is perfectly clear from the question and answer format of the FAQ and the context of what they said - you cannot affect other units when off table. That is all it says. Trying to construe it as some much bigger thing than being the direct answer to a direct question is  taking it out of context.

I have no interest in what anyone says on Twitter - I avoid Twitter. What you have "dealt with" on Twitter or some other social media or down the pub with your mates is not part of this discussion until you post it in this discussion.

Or just ask GW. Has anybody posted it up on their Facebook page as a question to be referred for the next FAQ?

[rokapoke]

So my previous answer has been, rather vehemently, shown to be incorrect for sanctioned play. That said, in an open or narrative game talk it out with your opponent. But as others have pointed out, it's a no go by the written rules/FAQ.

I would offer a contrasting point where a unit that is not on the battlefield explicitly affects units on the battlefield with text on its warscroll -- any summonable unit. Note, however, that the text of the spell indicates that "{Faction Specific} Wizards know this spell in addition to any others they know." This allows you to summon units without them pre-existing because this text is intended to reside on each Wizard's warscroll but is consolidated elsewhere due (essentially) to lack of space. It's not an ability and so is a different (if seemingly similar) concept.

[Squirrelmaster]

It does leave me wondering — if a player has two units of Ripperdactyls on their roster, deploys one on the table normally, but has the other held off the table for some reason, how many toads do I place?

It seems like if the unit that's off the table can't use the ability, the sensible answer would be "one". I'm not any of the rules-as-written or FAQs actually support that, though. As it stands, you either use the ability or you don't. If you use it, it counts how many RD units you have — why (RAW) would that only count units that are on the table?

[Nico]

1 hour ago, tokek said:

I think your mistake is to try to take it out of context by reading the answer alone. A FAQ is typically meant to be read as both a question and an answer and that would be the normally correct way to read and understand this format of writing.

If you take it out of context you can view this as a general restriction on abilities working while the model/unit is not on the table. As you have identified this would make one of the centerpiece models of the poster-boy faction literally unplayable.  As I recall from many years ago we can logically exclude a hypothesis by reductio ad absurdam - which I think we have done here as there is no way GW intend to make one of their prize models unplayable. That interpretation creates an absurd outcome and hence must not be the correct interpretation.

From the context there is no other subdivision or logic splitting we are entitled to apply to this statement other than "does this affect other units". So if the ability would affect a unit other than the one that is off the table then it does not apply as per the FAQ. If it applies only to the off-table unit, typically by putting some or all of that warscroll on the table, then there is no reason for it not to apply. Any consideration of active, passive etc has no support from the context so really we have no reason to think that they are relevant.

Nice try. Dealt with this already on Twitter. The answer is twofold. First there's a direct answer to the question. "No." Then there's a statement of a black and white principle. Not on table - no abilities.

It's not reasonable to misconstrue the answer by reference to the question when it's very clear that other answers are deliberately broader than the question (sometimes massively broader).

Here's the single most important FAQ answer for example - again quick direct answer then a general principle.

It would also be absurd if the Lord Celestant could buff himself with his Command Ability from off the table - but not other units - which is what your position leads to.

Trying to argue that would not nerf Rippers is also dubious - one of the worst designed units in the game - they had to be comped at independent events and then by the Rules of One as an auto-delete.

[Alaund]

17 minutes ago, tokek said:

I think your mistake is to try to take it out of context by reading the answer alone. A FAQ is typically meant to be read as both a question and an answer and that would be the normally correct way to read and understand this format of writing.

If you take it out of context you can view this as a general restriction on abilities working while the model/unit is not on the table. As you have identified this would make one of the centerpiece models of the poster-boy faction literally unplayable.  As I recall from many years ago we can logically exclude a hypothesis by reductio ad absurdam - which I think we have done here as there is no way GW intend to make one of their prize models unplayable. That interpretation creates an absurd outcome and hence must not be the correct interpretation.

From the context there is no other subdivision or logic splitting we are entitled to apply to this statement other than "does this affect other units". So if the ability would affect a unit other than the one that is off the table then it does not apply as per the FAQ. If it applies only to the off-table unit, typically by putting some or all of that warscroll on the table, then there is no reason for it not to apply. Any consideration of active, passive etc has no support from the context so really we have no reason to think that they are relevant.

That is a perfectly well-written explanation, @tokek! It does not resort to creating new hypothesis' on the rules themselves while being able to logically answer the problem. Moreover, this line of reasoning also solves other ambiguities mentioned in this thread by giving a simple rule of thumb - if the ability used outside off the battleground would affect other units, it could not be used; otherwise, it does not violate the FAQ ruling.

I believe I can mark this answer as the best one. I still want to additionally give credit to @heywoah_twitch for his reasoning, although I think we could objectively say @tokek's answer explains the subject in a more 'clear' manner.

[tokek]

On 9/15/2017 at 10:26 PM, Alaund said:

Hi there, I am trying to get my head around one of the FAQ rulings.

 

That does seem understandable in the context of the '[...] ... to affect other units'. However if I try to read the answer alone, it makes me wonder how it is applicable to different abilities and the type of abilities out there (sort of like: activated, passive, targeted, etc.)

 

I think your mistake is to try to take it out of context by reading the answer alone. A FAQ is typically meant to be read as both a question and an answer and that would be the normally correct way to read and understand this format of writing.

If you take it out of context you can view this as a general restriction on abilities working while the model/unit is not on the table. As you have identified this would make one of the centerpiece models of the poster-boy faction literally unplayable.  As I recall from many years ago we can logically exclude a hypothesis by reductio ad absurdam - which I think we have done here as there is no way GW intend to make one of their prize models unplayable. That interpretation creates an absurd outcome and hence must not be the correct interpretation.

From the context there is no other subdivision or logic splitting we are entitled to apply to this statement other than "does this affect other units". So if the ability would affect a unit other than the one that is off the table then it does not apply as per the FAQ. If it applies only to the off-table unit, typically by putting some or all of that warscroll on the table, then there is no reason for it not to apply. Any consideration of active, passive etc has no support from the context so really we have no reason to think that they are relevant.

[Alaund]

9 hours ago, Nico said:

No it doesn't.

If I understood correctly: I cannot use the ability off the battleground because the unit uses it, it's not a floating ability. But not every unit on the table can use it - can you please explain to me how were you able to determine this fact? Would help me to understand it correctly. Thanks!

[Nico]

Quote

EDIT: I just realised it, the distinction is there I believe! If the ability is used by a particular unit of Ripperdactyls and says I place a toad for each unit of Ripperdactyls, does that mean that if I have two units of Ripperdactyls and both activate toad ability, then, following the wording, I would place four Toads? (I activate the ability twice and each time I count each unit of Rippers)

No it doesn't.

[Alaund]

3 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

I would tend to assume that if an ability is implicitly used by off-the-table units, that overrides the FAQ. A rule that has you put the unit to one side instead of placing it on the table, then bring that unit on later, would fall into this category.

Ripperdactyl Riders wouldn't.

I get that there feels like a distinction between abilities that a model "uses" and passive abilities that "just are", but I don't see any rules basis for that distinction as of now.

I'm not sure I see the point of the Slaan one — even if it did "trigger", it only lasts as long as you have a Slaan on the table, right? So if you don't have any on the table, the effect never applies.

Thanks for the comment, @Squirrelmaster!

Yes, I agree that the moment the Slann's gone from the table the effect stops as well - I was using the example more to picture the idea behind it, which is: abilities that do not seem to be triggered by a unit itself.

If that would be the case, one could argue that Ripperdactyls' ability is not used by the Ripperdactyls' themselves - therefore it does not matter if they are on or off the battleground.

Why do I think that? The wording of the ability itself, stating that you get an effect (place a toad) for each unit of Ripperdactyls. Abilities that a unit can use are usually expressed very similarly, in the lines of 'you can place a toad in your first hero phase' . The one on Rippers' warscroll does not imply there's a decision for you to make or expression that this particular unit will in fact do something. 

I might look for another example to better illustrate the distinction if I come across one, hopefully.

[Alaund]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

It's an ability on the Warscroll. I don't see any significance to the distinction you're trying to make. It's not a free floating ability that isn't tied to a particular unit.

I was wondering if there actually is a distinction here.

EDIT: I just realised it, the distinction is there I believe! If the ability is used by a particular unit of Ripperdactyls and says I place a toad for each unit of Ripperdactyls, does that mean that if I have two units of Ripperdactyls and both activate toad ability, then, following the wording, I would place four Toads? (I activate the ability twice and each time I count each unit of Rippers)

[Nico]

It's an ability on the Warscroll. I don't see any significance to the distinction you're trying to make. It's not a free floating ability that isn't tied to a particular unit.

[Alaund]

11 minutes ago, Nico said:

You definitely cannot use the Toad Rage ability if you deploy them off the table. The FAQ could not be clearer on the point.

Hi @Nico, I understand the basis of the FAQ, I am asking if in this case is this an ability that a particular unit uses? The wording 'for each unit of Ripperdactyls' instead of the usual ones 'you can do something' sounds as if not the unit itself uses the ability. If you could elaborate I'd be more than grateful.

[Alaund]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

In the case of Ripperdactyl Riders, I would play it that each unit that's on your army list gets a toad. If you set it up off the battlefield (say, as part of the Shadowstrike Starhost) I would still expect you to get a toad in the first battle round. However, if you summon any after your first turn, those wouldn't get a toad since they weren't part of your army for toad placement in your first hero phase. 

This is, of course, merely my interpretation. I make no guarantees of correctness. 

Hi, @rokapoke thank you for your comment!

This is also what I thought after reviewing the answers about the 'off the table' topic in this thread - however, it seems there are also different interpretations of the Ripperdactyls' rule in other topics, such as here: 

 

I am hoping for @heywoah_twitch and @Nico to follow up as their also posted in the mentioned thread.

[Nico]

You definitely cannot use the Toad Rage ability if you deploy them off the table. The FAQ could not be clearer on the point.

[rokapoke]

In the case of Ripperdactyl Riders, I would play it that each unit that's on your army list gets a toad. If you set it up off the battlefield (say, as part of the Shadowstrike Starhost) I would still expect you to get a toad in the first battle round. However, if you summon any after your first turn, those wouldn't get a toad since they weren't part of your army for toad placement in your first hero phase. 

This is, of course, merely my interpretation. I make no guarantees of correctness. 

[Alaund]

Thank you again @heywoah_twitch for your comments!

Your interpretation is again something I can identify with. I'd like to try one more - along with another warscroll, to see if I uderstand it correctly. Some time ago there a thread about the Ripperdactyls' toad ability while their off the table as part of the Shadowstrike battalion. 

Quote

Toad Rage: Ripperdactyls become utterly frenzied whenever they catch the scent of a Blot Toad, and it is no coincidence that these diminutive creatures seem to materialise amid the enemy whenever the winged beasts are near. In your first hero phase, place a Blot Toad anywhere on the battlefield for each of your units of Ripperdactyl Riders. In each of your movement phases, roll a dice and move the Blot Toad up to that many inches.

Normally, as you'd assume, the unit can use the ability in the first hero phase; then obviously, i cannot use it as it is off the battleground. However, the rule wording says for each unit of Ripperdactyls. Could that mean the same mechanic as for the Slanns' constellations (your army contains any Slanns)? Also, if the unit is still considered my unit even off the table, then one could argue Ripperdactyls are still counted as my unit and therefore, the ability kicks off?

That sounds like a long shot in that case but I am trying to understand where the line lies here and how are the basic concepts of the game interpreted.

[heywoah_twitch]

2 hours ago, Alaund said:

- When is the ability considered to be started? 

Retribution from On High reads "Instead of setting up the Celestant-Prime on the battlefield, you must place him to one side and say that he is set up in the Celestial Realm." To me, this means that it starts during set-up.

2 hours ago, Alaund said:

- Does an ability have to be started by a specific unit? For example, I found this one on the Slann's warscroll: Celestial Configuration

That sounds as if the ability is triggered by the presence of at least one Slann but I could not say that this particular Slann is using his ability?

To me Celestial Configuration reads similarly to RfOH, in that it starts "after set-up is complete" which seems to work fine. It doesn't seem to require a Slann on the table to begin, although later in the ability, beginning with "At the start of your hero phase, one Slann Starmaster in your army can xxx..." that part would certainly require the Slann to be on the table by that point.

2 hours ago, Alaund said:

- Is a unit not on the table still considered my unit or does it become addressed as one only after I set it up back on the battlefield?

I would think that they are your units, as you own them and they are featured on your army list (or waiting in your summoning pool), however as they are not on the table they have very limited ability to affect or be affected by abilities. As above, a Slann Starmaster who isn't on the table can't choose to alter a constellation instead of cast one of its spells (further reasoning, since you couldn't cast a spell off the table either and that's what you're exchanging for your constellation altering drugs).

[Alaund]

Thank you for your responses!

Especially thank you for your explanation @heywoah_twitch

Quote

You can not "use" or in other words start abilities off the table during a game, but you can continue to resolve earlier abilities used properly, for instance Retribution From On High, whose effects start during set up and continue until fully resolved later in the game.

I can fully relate to this interpretation! That does bring some questions for me and I was hoping you have an opinion on those, too!

- When is the ability considered to be started? 

- Does an ability have to be started by a specific unit? For example, I found this one on the Slann's warscroll:

Quote

Celestial Configuration: If your army includes any Slann Starmasters, roll a dice after set-up is complete and consult the table below to see which constellation is in the ascendant, and how it affects your army. This effect lasts as long as you have a Slann Starmaster on the battlefield, or until a new constellation comes into effect.

That sounds as if the ability is triggered by the presence of at least one Slann but I could not say that this particular Slann is using his ability?

- Is a unit not on the table still considered my unit or does it become addressed as one only after I set it up back on the battlefield?

 

If there are any official rulings on that I apologise in advance - I've tried to look through the main rules, FAQs and such but failed to see any detailed explanations on the topic. 

Thank you very much!

 

[heywoah_twitch]

I see what you're getting at, namely: If you can't use abilities off the table, how can a Celestant-Prime strike from the heavens to be placed on the table at all, if that itself is an ability? In other words, how can he use an ability to come onto the table if he's in a no-ability zone?

Besides the RAI obviously intending for it to work, I would say this:

You can not "use" or in other words start abilities off the table during a game, but you can continue to resolve earlier abilities used properly, for instance Retribution From On High, whose effects start during set up and continue until fully resolved later in the game.

Abilities that allow later setup or effects off the table seem to use consistent language in their rules that start with "Instead of setting up [this model/unit] you may/must do xxx" which seems to imply delayed effects being okay off the table. The exception to this would be, as always, an ability that specifically states that you can use it in abnormal circumstances.

[Nico]

This answer is simply stating the truism that you cannot use abilities if you're not on the table - it's a tabletop game.  In particular you cannot use hero phase abilities if you arrive in the movement phase.