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Expanding my Gut(busters)


flamingwalnut

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Hello there! Long time lurker, looking to try and delve more into Age of Sigmar with my old Fantasy collection.

So, my biggest army from Fantasy still intact is my Ogre Kingdoms. Sadly, I sold off the Beastclaw Raider aspects of it (go figure that THEY get focused on...) so that leaves me with the Gutbusters.

I am rolling around the idea, given my limited money, that finishing off my Ogres would be an easy route. But what do they need?

I have:

1 Tyrant (want a better model, but my kitbash works)
1 butcher (needs a cauldron)
1 Firebelly
3 units of 6 Ogres
1 unit of 8 Ironguts
1 "Gorger"
4 Leadbelchers

And a handful of Moonclan grots, original Greenskin Orruks, a Giant, and some Spider Riders. Quite the hodgepodge, really...

So, what do you think would be best to add to this pile of Ogors and co? I am fine going pure Destruction, as I have the Ogres to spare and no allegiances to break. Are the Ironblasters/Grot Scraplaunchers worth it? More Giants? Get the Beastclaw again? I am open to a lot of things, just fishing for opinions and thoughts.

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Specifically dealing with  Gutbuster List

Definitely include the Aleguzzlar Gargant. He's really just the easiest allies to include into any list because he fits in at every size and is just efficient for his points cost, combined with the firebelly you hit 310 on the allies if you did want to go Gutbuster!

With that in mind, what points value are you aiming for? Going for a basic Gutbuster list without the Gargant you get

Gutbuster Ogors
Allegiance: Gutbuster

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly (Allies)

Battleline
400 - 12 Ogors
120 - 3 Ogors
400 - 6 Ironguts
140 - 3 Leadbelchers

Total: 1500

Increasing to 2000 points using what you have.

Battleline
120 - (+3) Ogors - unit of 6 instead of 3.
60 - 1 Gorger

Total: 180 (320 spare)

170 - Aleguzzlar Gargant (Allies) (150 Spare)
100/270 - (20/60) Gutbuster Grots (depends on how many you have already)

Options
2*60 - (+2) Gorgers - unit of 3 (£15.50 each)
140 - Ironblaster (£20.50 for 1)
130 - GrotScraplauncher (£20.50 for 1)
400 - 6 Ironguts (£23 for 4) (you already own 2 of these and they come as 4, so you would need 1 box of 4 to get 6 extra on the field)
140 - 3 Leadbelchers (£23 for 4) ((you already own 1 of these and they come as 4, so you would need 1 box of 4 to get 3 more with 2 spare or 2 boxes to have 9 more on the field)

Thoughts

In terms of available points for monetary value the Ironguts are easily the best purchase. This is specifically because they field as units of 3 but come of boxes of 4, as a result your next box is actually 2 units of Ironguts. The most expensive Option is Maneaters, I didn't even include them because they field as units of 3 but cost (£15) each.

If you want to include the Aleguzzlar then the Ironblaster or 3 more leadbelchers are good choices, they fill your points cost with 10 spare for a Triumph Roll. For the leadbelchers specifically you would probably want 2 boxes because this gives you 3 more units and some choice available in your list. 

Bad options for expanding your army would be Gorgers and Maneaters, the points to money ratio is obscenely bad and you don't need any more of them to field what you already have. As an example here an Ironblaster is 140 points for £20 while 2 Gorgers is 120 points for £30 (4:1). Even if you aren't using GBP the ratio is going to be largely the same. On the other side of it the next box of Ironguts is 400 points for £23 (17:1) making that one Ironguts box over four times more points per cost! 

Future proofing wise your best combination of purchases is going to be 1 box of Ironguts and 2 boxes of Leadbelchers. This gives you a fantastic choice of battleline options, since both are Gutbuster Allegiance Battleline, while also hitting the magical 12 models which is 4x3 of each. Equally another box of Ogors would let you drop  As such I'd end up with a list looking something like this.

 

Gutbuster Ogors
Allegiance: Gutbuster

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly (Allies)

Battleline
400 - 12 Ogors
400 - 6 Ironguts
400 - 6 Ironguts
280 - 6 Leadbelchers

60 - 1 Gorger

Total: 1980

Required
1 box of Ironguts
1 box of Leadbelchers

OR

Gutbuster Ogors
Allegiance: Gutbuster

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly (Allies)

Battleline
400 - 12 Ogors
600 - 9 Ironguts
280 - 6 Leadbelchers
280 - 6 Leadbelchers

Total: 2000

Required
1 box of Ironguts
2 box of Leadbelchers

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Dealing with a Destruction List

Your battleline tax is cheaper and you have a wider array of options. There are two slightly different starting lists which fill your battleline tax.

Destruction
Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly

Battleline
400 - 12 Ogors
90 - 10 Orruks
130 - 20 Moonclan Grots

Total: 1060

 

Destruction
Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly

Battleline
240 - 6 Ogors
240 - 6 Ogors
240 - 6 Ogors

Total: 1160

From here you have a bunch of choices.

The Venom Clan Box is great value and gives you a bunch of free mortal wound output. It combines nicely with whatever Spiderfang Grots you already have as well. The box itself is 280 points for the Arachnarok and 200 points for the 10 Spider Riders. Putting a Grot Shaman on the top gives you get an extra 2 spell casts a turn one of which is going to be the Gift of the Spider God spell, absolutely fantastic when combined with a sizable (say 10-20!) unit of Spider Riders. 

Beast Claw Raiders you already identified as an option, not going to say much more here because you're aware of it but in terms of price to points on field this one is pretty crazy, 320 for the Mournfang Pack and 460 for the Frostlord on Stonehorn.

There are some more Obscure Options but those are generally all going to be pricey and a bit more esoteric in their appeal. Things like the Troggoth Hag (Yes I'm Obsessed!) or other Forge World Behemoths (of which destruction has a huge number). Ironjawz are cool but realistically they are filling the same role as your Ogors just in a slightly different way. You could slant towards a Moonclan Addition to the army with bows and fanatics. There is a fair bit of choice here. For now though I suspect the best first option would be the Venomclan because of how well it goes with the Spider Riders you already have. 

That would give you the following list.

Destruction
Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
160 - Tyrant
140 - Butcher
140 - Firebelly
280 - Arachnarock Spider with Goblin Shaman

Battleline
400 - 12 Ogors
240 - 6 Ogors
130 - 20 Moonclan Grots

Behemoths
170 - Aleguzzlar Gargant

Other
200 - 10 Spider Riders
140 - 3 Leadbelchers

Total: 2000

Extra 
400 - 6 Ironguts
100 - (+5) Spider riders

Total: 2500

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I just played a game against free people. Some thoughts:

-destruction allegiance abilities are basically nonexistent. I didn't get rampaging destroyers move once. 

-free people had most of their saves 2+ or 3+, therefore regular Ogors with no rend did almost nothing and Ironguts helped me a lot. I know that big bunch of regular Ogors seems to be better, but for me ironguts perform really well. Especially if you get +1 to hit from Butcher. 

-4+ to hit over the army really requires to get +1 to hit somehow. And only way to get it is from Butcher. He is fun, but very unreliable: one Butcher lost 4 wounds on his first round by his own hand. I got that +1 to hit only once. 

-as all units have 33%/hit chance to hit, it's better to keep all units bigger than 3. Especially ironguts: in units of 3 there is big potential that they do no damage at all, unit of 6 usually gets through 1-3 hits (and their damage is 3). 

-tyrant can be potentially devastating: by chance I had +1 to hit, +2 to wound and had a gutgouger. So I did 15 damage on general on griffon in one round and killed it. 

All in all, after GHB 2017 Ogors are really tough army to play with: few bodies that makes taking/holding objectives very hard, low to hit ratio with almost no chance to make it better (not like greenskins, who have many ways), slow moving (again no chance to make them faster, unlike ironjaws), no long range missile weapons, and no chance to alleviate the weaknesses with allies (except move with mournfang, or shooting with Thundertusk). 

But they are still cool models and fun to play with. Also, against other armies they can play out differently.  

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On 9/17/2017 at 8:28 AM, Kessler said:

-destruction allegiance abilities are basically nonexistent. I didn't get rampaging destroyers move once. 

 

With the +2 to the roll for your general? that's rough. 

On 9/17/2017 at 8:28 AM, Kessler said:

-as all units have 33%/hit chance to hit,

What do you mean? A 4+ to hit is still 50% chance to hit, by my math? ;)

On 9/17/2017 at 8:28 AM, Kessler said:

Also, against other armies they can play out differently.  

I think this is very very true, I get a lot of use out of my ogors vs Skaven. Low saves means less need for the rend and the two damage per attack means a lot of dead rats. 

Next game I use my ogors, i'll try do the same, it's good to hear other peoples experiences. 

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5 hours ago, Kramer said:

With the +2 to the roll for your general? that's rough. 

What do you mean? A 4+ to hit is still 50% chance to hit, by my math? ;)

Yes, I meant that although 4+ is 50%, you have to wound at 3+ as well to get a chance to "hit", ie force opponent to do something. :)

That is also why I find ironguts so important: rend. Most my enemy units have really good saves and normal ogors don't do much against them.  Even leadbelchers' rend helped a lot. 

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1 hour ago, Kessler said:

Yes, I meant that although 4+ is 50%, you have to wound at 3+ as well to get a chance to "hit", ie force opponent to do something. :)

That is also why I find ironguts so important: rend. Most my enemy units have really good saves and normal ogors don't do much against them.  Even leadbelchers' rend helped a lot. 

Fair enough. Have you looked at maneaters by the way?  Also offer rend, a shooting attack and an extra bonus depending on what you need. I'm still undecided. What about you? 

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2 hours ago, Kessler said:

Yes, I meant that although 4+ is 50%, you have to wound at 3+ as well to get a chance to "hit", ie force opponent to do something. :)

That is also why I find ironguts so important: rend. Most my enemy units have really good saves and normal ogors don't do much against them.  Even leadbelchers' rend helped a lot. 

Quite right. If you don't mind some statistics and a closer look:

One Ogor attacking a 3+ save:  59c57cc5f0672_ogorone3.png.b6d6cadd6763bc1795fe56f03d2dd0d0.png  vs a 4+ save: 59c57cc6c491d_ogorone4.png.3bd9a4b04d7e7ae7c2b59261bccd78cb.png

One Irongut attacking a 3+ save: 59c57cc34bbca_guts3.png.148d227cdc0375add7c4b6136450a74c.png vs a 4+ save: 59c57cc24486d_guts4.png.11201a25c9513c4bb59f3866cec1a86e.png

240 points of Ogors attacking a 3+ save: 59c57ed925798_240ogor3.png.f94f0ab264ae9d49790ca3c6e991a6dd.png vs a 4+ save: 59c57eda479e9_240ogor4.png.c0343fd6aace98ec44ba98cde8a37c18.png

200 points of Ironguts attacking a 3+ save: 59c57edc124d7_200iron3.png.a5ae9dbad65ce60b29381d3babb51528.png vs a 4+ save: 59c57edb3b089_200iron4.png.ee150201f51a647bd5b46740919699d4.png

Notes:

Did not factor in rerolling 1s on a charge nor rerolling 1s for two weapons for Ogors. If you get the charge vs 3+ your green (expected) damage becomes 2-8, and vs a 4+ it gets about 5% better across the board.

In the unlikely event of using Ogors with two weapons and get the charge vs normal armor targets (4+ and worse), Ogor damage is better than Ironguts for the points. Of course, against high armor targets the rend weapons show their power.

For "Fun":  Against a 2+ rerollable save (aka painted cancer), one Ogor has a 97% chance to deal zero damage, while one Irongut has only an 89%.

Edit:

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Fair enough. Have you looked at maneaters by the way?  Also offer rend, a shooting attack and an extra bonus depending on what you need. I'm still undecided. What about you? 

Maneaters are considerably stronger attackers than Ironguts and ogors of any type and situation. They pay for this by having a worse save than Ironguts and costing 20 more points per 3.

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1 hour ago, Kramer said:

Fair enough. Have you looked at maneaters by the way?  Also offer rend, a shooting attack and an extra bonus depending on what you need. I'm still undecided. What about you? 

Yes, but I have tried them only twice. First time they missile attack was nice and did some damage. Second time they got killed by some hero or cheap battle line unit, their 5+ save makes them very vulnerable. And considering their price it is a big drawback. 

However, they are more versatile than ironguts. Might want to try them in unit of 6, but that's over 400 point ally rule...

I'd say they are as good as ironguts or a bit better or at least more reliable, but 5+ save forces you to play them differently from ironguts. But these are just ideas, I have used them only twice. 

heywoah_twitch, thanks for the input! I thought that 240p Ogors damage output should be better, but at the same time I feel that ironguts have their place as specialist troops against high save/in cover units. Which also comes out nicely from statistics.

Ironguts' own higher save also makes them last longer; my Ogors tend to die like flies :). 

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