Wanderers of the Realms: A TGA Community Living Wishlist

[Yeled]

Background: Following the release of GHB2017, the Wanderers faction gained Allegiance Abilities that gave this legacy army a flavor and strategic capability that had previously been lacking. The Melt Away and Realm Wanderers Hidden Pathways abilities provide an opportunity to run the Wanderers as a hit-and-run skirmish army. Time will tell how effective this will be, but the general consensus among Wanderers players here on TGA seems to be that these are positive steps in the right direction, bringing the faction more in line with the way people want to play.

At the same time, the removal of the Wanderers keyword from the Compendium wood elf units has left many Wanderers players feeling a little frustrated. Seemingly vital units have been removed from the faction, leaving Wanderers without the speed or strength they once enjoyed.  The Wanderers seem to exist in a middle space: Not yet fully supported, but with enough units to field something approaching a full army list.

Goal: After discussing the idea with several TGA Community Members on the Let's Chat Wanderers thread, I've decided to create a Wanderers Community Wishlist thread. The goal of this thread is to provide a single, one-stop location where we might make suggestions to Games Workshop about what we'd like to see in the faction going forward. It is my (perhaps vain) hope that, should the Wanderers ever receive a Battletome, new models, or even a rules update for existing units such as what occurred in GHB2017, that the TGA Community might inform at least some of the thinking that goes into such via this thread.

How it will Work: In this first post I will gather ideas suggested in comments below into a single location, organizing them according to theme or idea, and cleaning them up so that any Games Workshop designer perusing the thread might find everything they need right away without the need to scan the entire thread. However, this will not be my list. I would like to invite all Wanderer players and interested parties to make suggestions and to discuss them below. Rather than post everything into a giant, chaotic list, I will only move the suggestion to this first post when the community finds a modicum of consensus. Voting via the reaction buttons or discussion that leads to an obvious conclusion and refinement of a concept will be moved. Future ideas that fit into something already posted will be added, where appropriate, to provide additional concepts or detail. I promise that so long as the TGA community continues to suggest ideas, I will continue to maintain and update the first post, putting new material in a bright color to identify it. I will also note when I do so by posting in the thread in order to bump it.

Please note that this is not meant to be a general Wanderers discussion thread. We already have one of those: Let's Chat Wanderers

Wanderers Community Living Wishlist: Ideas and Suggestions for Games Workshop (Updated Sept 21, 2017)

Themes

Ambushes/Hit-and-Run/Skirmishing. There is a general consensus that Wanderers should be a skirmishing army that employs ambushes and hit-and-run tactics with deadly archery. Both Realm Wanderers and Melt Away allegiance abilities support this, but we want it taken to another level. To support this, we suggest some of the following:

• De-emphasize the idea of standing still in order to earn buffs. Too many of our units (Eternal Guard, Sisters of the Watch, and Waywatcher Lord) benefit from not moving. This forces us to use a "gunline" strategy that seems more appropriate for dispossessed, free peoples, or high elf factions. For Wanderers, focus on the opposite. Encourage movement. Let us earn our buffs in other ways (see below for ideas). 
• Provide abilities that play off the Realm Wanderers hidden pathway ability. Give us a bonus to hit in the turn in which we materialize or similar.
• Keep us squishy, but make us a little harder to engage. Maybe instead of more speed, enemies could have a -x to their charge rolls against us (could be d3" or something), representing Wanderers' rapid advances and retreats making charges difficult to time against them?

Smaller Units, Focus on Survival. In keeping with the Hit-and-Run tactics we would like to employ, let us focus on small units that emphasize survival. We want a lower model count army that focuses on mobility, evading, and coordination/support between the units.  We don't want to feel like I have lots of models that I can afford to lose. Guerrilla warfare is fought by forces that have less troops - they can't afford loss of life. As much as we could benefit from chaff units to slow down the enemy while we shoot at them, it doesn't fit the flavor of Wanderers. They are the nomadic remnants of an already small population, and their playstyle should represent that!

• Don't give us buffs for having large units. It's anti-thematic. Wanderers need to go in the opposite direction. Small units of archers are more resilient and  much more in keeping with the wanderer theme. Having to buy 30 Glade Guard to get that vital 3 to hit is a big battalion foot print and ruins the theme of a wanderer list.  Rather than give Glade guard massive regiments limit them to smaller forces, but give them synergies for being near to other Glade Guard units (see below). It will provide contrast to other armies and be a disadvantage when facing horde units claiming objectives etc which is fine. 
• Promote in and out combat and focus on survival in that first combat round. The Melt Away ability is great, but we worry we'll never use it because our archers die so fast in combat. You can't retreat when you're dead. Help us survive that first round of combat with abilities like a -1 to hit against us during the first round of cc, representing our speed and agility, or play with some of the Wardancer rules. Also explore other abilities that allow hit-and-run tactics.

Elite Archers. Man, we feel a little salty about how mediocre our archers are. Other armies do archery better than us. They shoot farther or hit harder or fire more volleys. It's a little sad when the vaunted Wanderer archers are outgunned in the range department. For Wanderers, we don't need to shoot the farthest or hardest, but make us the most accurate. Make armies fear our bows. We rely on archery to win, so play up how excellent our shooters are. A lot of armies get more bang for their points buck than we do. We need to feel we're pound for pound among the best archers in the game.

• Create some excellent sniper units. These could be heroes. But extend their range and give them access to mortal wounds. Make our heroes renowned for their bow skills.
• Consider upgrading our main archer units. Allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move. Give Glade Guard a 3+ to hit without buffing, or make the buff trigger in some relatively easy way. We're willing to pay the premium points that we have to pay for our 1 wound models if we could output more damage. This is also in keeping with smaller model counts.
• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better (keeping enemies in our range but us out of theirs), or with more range we could play more like the  skirmishing archers we are.

Better Cavalry, in keeping with Skirmish Tactics. We're a light cavalry army. We get that. We don't need chaos knight type damage output. But if we're going to be a employing light cavalry force to supplement our skirmishing archers, make them excellent at what they do.

• Wild Riders are mostly fine as light, fast moving cavalry.  But make them even better at being light, fast moving cavalry. Give them the ability to Melt Away and Charge and add a -1 rend when they charge (combining Wabbit's ideas). If they could strike fast by running and charging, then melt out of combat only to charge in again on another unit, they would be pretty effective. If Wild Riders can be fast moving cavalry that support our skirmishing archers by darting into combat to help them while they escape, then escape to fight on the next turn, they would be a very unique and effective unit...and probably worth the 140 points we pay for them.
• Give us some mounted archers that are effective at skirmishing and kiting. The running and shooting on Glade Riders was useless compared to the ability Reavers have. With a 20" bow, we don't not want to move much except to kite my enemy. Any movement we do is to keep the enemy away. Running doesn't help do that since we'll just move out of range. The Reavers' ability is just flat out better, since it can be done before or after shooting (to get in range or back off again) and this really fits the flavor of Wanderers as skirmishers.
• We need a mounted hero or hero options that buffs these other guys.

Synergy with Scenery. The Wanderers are nomadic peoples who know their way along the hidden paths of the world. They are familiar with the magic places, the dangers, and the pitfalls, and they understand how to survive them. Furthermore, the Wanderers should be able to take advantage of this to support their skirmishing tactics. In a future rules update, promote this by promoting rules that allow our warriors to synergize with scenery.

• Consider giving all wanderers immunity from or a save against wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. Or at least give it to Wyld woodrangers!!!!!
• Let Wanderers use and manipulate scenery to their advantage. Perhaps wanderers could apply terrain effects to scenery via magic or other abilities. Or more interesting, let them alter enemy and friendly unit's movement. This is something that is exciting and different, and it really fits the theme of Wanderers and could support their skirmishing and hit and run tactics.  Alternatively, perhaps they can lay traps in d3 terrain before a battle and choose secretly where they are. They can prevent movement for a turn or do mortal wounds or debuff to hit or remove cover bonus making it useless for a phase/turn.
• Scenery as buffer. If you are going to remove buffs from standing still as suggested above, one idea might be to give bonuses on to hit rolls when Wanderers are close to scenery, or subtract from the to hit rolls of opponents instead.

Synergies/Traps/Supportive Attacks. Outside of the command abilities of our generals, we really don't have any units that synergize with or buff other units. But if coordinated hit and run tactics are the theme, then units supporting one another through synergies should be emphasized. Skirmishers should be about supporting and coordinating attacks and retreats. Instead of standing still and large unit buffs, consider some of the following:

• Coordinated fire! A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit shooting at the same enemy unit would be pretty cool.
• We are all around you! Instead of the large unit buff, encourage us to spread those models out. Glade Guard get a +1 to hit so long as another Glade Guard unit is within 12 inches of it and within line of sight. 
• Kill it (before it kills us)! Select an enemy unit in the combat phase. All wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. Could be a battalion rule or a hero's ability. It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 
• Maybe we can get stuff like a +1 to hit against targets engaged in cc against one of your units, or a double distance retreat when another of your units remains in cc with the enemy unit you're retreating from, etc.
• Use synergies to give us reasons to use heroes other than Waywatcher Lord and the Nomad Prince. 

 

Suggestions Concerning Existing, Non-Hero Units

Archers

Glade Guard. GG should be our baseline archers. Ideally these are small bands of mobile, low armor troops with decent range. Overall these guys are pretty decent as is. Suggestions for making them fit with the new allegiance abilities and the themes described above/in first post:

• Make the Wanderers an elite archer army by giving them a baseline 3+ to hit.
• Don't require us to have large units of these guys. Instead, encourage us to use larger numbers of GG units that synergize with other units of GG or heroes. For example, give them a buff when they target a unit that another Wanderer unit already targeted in a single shooting phase.

Sisters of the Watch. Our elite archers do not unfortunately mesh with the new allegiance abilities as we rarely stand still if we can avoid it. As a result they are not a good choice when you can have 2x as many GG for about the same cost (a unit of 20 GG output approximately 7 wounds each time they fire before saves, whereas 10 SotW can only manage about 4...standing still SotW damage output goes to around 9, which is not enough of a difference to warrant taking them since it is unlikely we'll be standing still a lot. On top of that SotW have half as many wounds and do not have the -3 rend ability...it's almost impossible to justify taking them. Consider, also, that they are the same points as Kurnoth Hunters, who do more steady damage at greater range and with a lot more durability and the ability to do mortal wounds, and you can see SotW are simply inefficient). But these should be an obvious choice for a Wanderer army, representing the very best of Wanderer archery the way Brutes and Palladins represent the best of what Ironjawz and Stormcast do, respectively. To make them fill that role consider the following: 

• Remove the requirement to stand still in order to get the second attack in the shooting phase. This buff does not work with the new allegiance abilities and people are dropping the unit from their Wanderer lists as a result. Instead, either give them a straight second shot or find another trigger. Examples could be giving them an extra attack if they used the Realm Wanderers teleport during the movement phase that turn, by being close to a waywatcher lord, when they are shooting at an enemy unit engaged in close combat with another Wanderer unit, or when they target an enemy unit that was already targeted by a Wanderer unit during the shooting phase.
• Another way to handle the above, consider giving SotW a choice between attacking twice or attacking once but with -1 rend/2 wounds. In fact, giving them something like the old Waywatcher ability to choose between fast shots and precise shots would be pretty great.
• Alternatively, SotW could fire twice or only once, but if they fire once they do MW on 6+. (Our army could really use a unit with the capability of doing mortal wounds). Or perhaps they do mortal wounds in the shooting phase after they've teleported using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability.
• Why do the Sisters of the Watch wound better against chaos? That seems like a holdover from when they were Sisters of Avelorn. Consider making that more equal across the board in terms of hitting other armies. Perhaps one of the ideas listed above could trigger a +1 to wound.

Close Combat Hitters

Wyldwood Rangers. The WWR are really the only true hitty unit we have. They have a good stat-line with a killer buff against monsters. But the muscle of our army doesn't stack up compared to other elite hitty units. Executioners, for example, are the same points but are much more devastating. In practice Executioners are far more effective and survive better. With a save of 5+, the Rangers tend to die before they can really do their thing. The D3 against monsters is meaningless if we can't get the WWR to the monsters in the first place. If they do manage to get to their target, they probably die anyway. Glass cannons with no range. To fix this:

• Make the WWR masters of moving about without being engagable.  It would be kind of cool if they were really hard to pin down until they wanted to engage in combat. WWR's want to fight monsters and not get killed before they do. To represent their ability to move about unseen, perhaps they can declare they are moving unseen in the hero phase. If they do this, they are -1 to hit in the shooting phase, can't charge that turn, but the enemy can't charge them either. Alternatively, once you declare a charge against them you need to roll a 4 or higher (+1 to the roll if they are in a forest or some other type of cover to represent synergy with scenery).  Otherwise they slip by you and you can't charge them that round.
• The D3 against monsters is nice, but it makes WWR a very specialized unit. Consider making them a bit more flexible. This is less important than the bullet above.

Wild Riders. Fast light cavalry that can run and charge in the same turn. These guys have excellent range, but they lack punch. Next to Goregruntas, which cost the same points now, they are a bit underwhelming. Our suggestions are to keep the Wild Riders mostly the same in terms of their niche and abilities, but make them even better at lightning strike blitzes:

• Wild Riders should have -1 rend on the charge to go along with +1 to wound. Alternatively, you could give them the ability to do mortal wounds on the charge, though this would obviously make them more expensive and one of the better striking cavalry units.
• Keeping with the Melt Away allegiance ability and the skirmishing theme described above, let Wild Riders Melt Away out of combat and then charge again that same turn. That would make them very fast light cavalry capable of punching something in the face and then moving away before they get too decimated, or engage another foe that was moving too close to the archers.
• Wild Riders could move d6" (essentially run but not move) after using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability, making them more likely to get into a charge position. This would enhance their fast strike cavalry role. 

Support

Eternal Guard. Eternal Guard are our blockers, keeping the archers free of enemy units and probably the only non-hero Wanderer unit where the points seem like a really good value. Just "guys" when on the move, they turn into elite soldiers when they don't move for an entire turn. In the old gunline style of play these were a no brainer, and I find it hard to offer constructive criticism because they were such a good value. The problem is that, again, we don't want to stand still. So while the +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and +1 to save Fortress of Boughs is great, it's still encouraging a play style that seems pre-GH2017.

• The only suggestion here is to somehow come up with a different trigger for the buffing that doesn't involve standing still. As our blockers they need to come with the archers when we use the Realm Wanderer teleport, but when they do they die in droves. To encourage this role as protectors, perhaps we could trigger the buffs when Wanderer archer units are within a certain range of them. It could be quite close, like 3".

Sisters of the Thorn. These very expensive wizard/cavalry are really only exceptional for their Shield of Thorns spell. It's especially devastating when stacked with cover, mystic shield, and/or the Eternal Guard Fortress of Boughs ability to buff up when standing still. Due to the new allegiance abilities, however, EG are standing still a lot less frequently than they once were. I've heard a couple Wanderer players suggest they don't want to bring these any more because they aren't used as much. Outside their spellcasting, they are are fairly mediocre unit that neither excels at combat or at range, and they are fairly frail. Essentially they are an overpriced spellcaster with speed and more wounds than usual. 

• These guys can probably stay the same as they are a good unit. Consider lowering the points significantly since they aren't even close to Palladors for the same points, and the one thing they do really well (the Shield of Thorns) is a good but not great spell in our lists given the changes to play style brought by allegiance abilities. 
• Alternatively, make these a truly elite unit. A unit that costs 220 points needs to do more than a spell that only works two to four times a game. Consider adding all of the following.
  • Give them a 3+ to hit on their javelins. A unit that costs 220 pts should be at least 3/4/-/1.
  • A 12" range on the SotT javelins would be quite nice as well - at least they'd be able to throw them after using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability. Any time we can build on the excellent allegiance ability we should consider doing it. This plus the item above would add a cavalry archer role to SotT as well.
  • Give them back their Ward Save ability: Any time the Sisters of the Thorn suffer a wound or MW, they ignore it on a 4+. This is probably the most important change you can make, as it makes the Sisters so much more usable in a variety of situations. It would instantly make this one of the best Wanderer units available.
• Another problem with SotT is that larger units are a complete waste. Wanderer players would never take these in unit sizes larger than the minimum. It just means we're paying premium for a mediocre unit and giving up more spells. 2 units of 5 is always better than 1 unit of 10. Fix this by:
  • Allowing them to cast 2 spells at 10 models and 3 spells at 15 models. 
  • Alternatively, if they get their Ward Save back, allow them to pick another nearby unit to benefit from the Ward Save or extend it's range for every five surviving models in the unit. This second option would instantly make big units of SotT desirable.

 

Suggestions Concerning Existing, Non-Hero Units

Heroes are one area where the Wanderers are clearly deficient. This is not because the Heroes aren't good units (though we have nothing with more than five wounds and 6" move), but because outside of command abilities they have no way to synergize with other Wanderer units. The Waywatcher -> Wayfinder -> Waystrider -> Nomad Prince paradigm is one of gradual movement from elite archer to elite combat fighter with stages in between. As a result the two middle stages--Wayfinder and Waystrider--have no real role in the army. The Waywatcher and Nomad Prince are simply deemed superior at what they do. Additionally, because they do not buff our troops outside the command abilities and their command abilities are deemed inferior to those of the Waywatcher and Nomad Prince, the two middle heroes are seldom if ever employed in a Wanderer or Order army.

Perhaps more importantly, this lack of buffing and synergy from our heroes leaves Wanderers at a decided disadvantage compared to many other factions and contributes to the choice of many Wanderer players to abandon the Wanderer allegiance in favor of mixed Order. A quick glance at the Let's Chat Wanderers thread will show numerous attempts to win pitched battle games with the Wanderer allegiance, with major losses occurring almost every time. The Wanderers lack the ability to take and hold objectives. Heroes are not the only reason for this, but their lack of buffing means that abandoning the allegiance and the Wanderer models in favor of units that do confer buffs has been a major strategy Wanderers players have had to employ in order to be competitive in matched play style of game.

Because of all the above, the Wanderer players on the TGA Community recommend the following two base strategies concerning Heroes:

1. Every Wanderer hero should have buffs or other unit synergies that are not tied to it's Command Ability to make them more useful even when they are not the general;
2. Every Wanderer hero should have a clearly defined battlefield role based on its non-Command Ability abilities.

We suggest that the existing paradigm of elite archer to elite fighter be enhanced with clear battlefield roles as follows:

Heroes

Waywatcher. The elite archer is probably the favored hero of the Wanderer faction and is a unit that makes it into most Wanderer and Wanderer-themed mixed-order games. There is not a lot to adjust here. This is simply a good unit. However, the Waywatcher should further solidify his sniper/elite archer role through the following:

• The Waywatcher could be the unit most employed to lead small bands of teleporting archers, and this should be encouraged via its abilities to buff archers and archer units. Many of the suggestions on archer units above have been about making them more elite. This could be accomplished via the Waywatcher through buffing during the shooting phase.
  • One excellent suggestion made by the community is that the Waywatcher could act as a leader and coordinator of archer units as reflected through a Tracer Arrow concept. The rule could be something like: "If any Waywatcher wounds a target unit during the shooting phase, other Wanderer units get a +1 to hit that same target until the end of the shooting phase."
  • Alternatively, the Waywatcher could confer some kind of MW or rend capability on nearby archers via the mechanic above or simply by being nearby.
• Please remove the not moving trigger that confers the +1 to hit in favor of another trigger. This is another example of the warscrolls not matching the new paradigm of teleporting troops and penalizing us when we use our new allegiance abilities. The +1 to hit could trigger in other ways such as in the shooting phase of the turn in which the waywatcher teleported, when the waywatcher is in cover, when the waywatcher is near a unit of Glade Guard and/or Sisters of the Watch, etc.

Wayfinder. The 75% archer, 25% fighter as currently constituted has no real place on the battlefield. Yes, the Hail of Doom arrow is nice, but not enough to make up for his disadvantage compared to the Waywatcher. At the same time, the Wayfinder name practically screams Realm Wanderer teleport buffer. This unit could easily be turned into a movement buffer, capable of leading the teleporting Wanderers in ways they couldn't do without him.

• Make the Wayfinder a teleport buffer. Allow him to enhance that ability. The Wayfinder should be a beacon and guide on the hidden paths, with knowledge of quicker routes that open up in unexpected places. Some suggestions of how this might be implemented:
  • When using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability, the Wayfinder and all Wanderer units within 6" of him can leave the board and set up within 9" or 12" inches of the table edge, rather than the usual 6". 
  • When using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability, the Wayfinder and all Wanderer units within 6" of him when he teleports from the table edge can set up wholly within 6" of a piece of scenery in addition to the edge of the table.
  • When using the Realm Wanderers allegiance ability, the Wayfinder and one additional unit within 6" of him can leave the board and and return as normal. However, this does not count as either unit's move, and both units may either move as normal or use an ability that requires that the unit stand still.
• The command ability is too limited. Consider enhancing it. Perhaps it allows nearby Wanderers to use his Bravery and, should any archer unit be required to make a battleshock test that unit can immediately shoot as if were the shooting phase. The requirement that we roll a 1 is just too limited. Frankly even with this ability I'd never make him my general. 

Waystrider. The Waystrider is a combat fighter with some range. Make him the leader of our quick strike close combat units such as the Wyldwood Rangers, and give the Waystrider abilities that focus on using ambush tactics to get his troops in close. If our hard hitting troops are also vulnerable when out in the open, then a hero who leads bands of guerrilla fighters against our foes is an ideal mechanic that gives this guy a unique role on the battlefield. Some suggestions on who this could be accomplished:

• Give the Waystrider buffs that allow him and other units to ambush our enemies. This, combined with our allegiance abilities, would make for a totally guerrilla fighting style. For example:
  • Charge from Hidden Position: At the beginning of the game, the Waystrider can reserve one or more wanderer units like Sylvaneth do in hidden enclaves (they remain off the table). During the charge phase of any of your turns the Waystrider and the reserve Wanderers units can make a charge attempt from any piece of scenery on the table (measuring from the edge of the scenery feature).  If the charge fails, the Wanderers must be set up wholly within 3" of the scenery edge. No charge can be attempted if an enemy unit is within 3" of a piece of scenery.
    • Alternatively, and to be even more disruptive, the above ability could occur in the enemy charge phase.  
  • The Trap is Sprung: As above, at the beginning of the game, the Waystrider can reserve one or more wanderer units like Sylvaneth do in hidden enclaves (they remain off the table). At the beginning of the shooting phase of either player's turn, the wanderer units in reserve can deploy wholly within a terrain feature and shoot at a nearby unit. They may not be deployed from any terrain feature that has an enemy unit within 3".
  • Simply allow the Waystrider to allow a unit to move after teleporting. See the suggestion above for Wayfinder.
• Allow the Waystrider to make our close combat units more effective. Buff our combat abilities. Some suggestions:
  • Pick a Wanderer unit within 12". That unit gets a +1 to hit in the Combat phase.
  • The Draich's of Wyldwood Ranger units within 9" of the Waystrider do D3 damage regardless of whether the target is a monster.
• The Heartseeker Arrow is a useless ability. 33% of the time it does 1 MW, after which it never again takes affect. How about making it happen every turn but requiring a 6+, or dropping it altogether in favor of something else? Maybe the Waystrider could simply do MW's with its Longbow on rolls of 6+.
• As with the Wayfinder, the Waystrider command ability is useless. Please enhance to make it a viable choice in our army.

Nomad Prince. The Nomad Prince is almost always our choice for our general due to it's ability to allow nearby units to reroll hit rolls of 1 regardless of combat phase. This, plus it's outstanding combat profile and 2" range makes this the superior unit to include in a gunline or group of teleporting troops. The Nomad Prince plays the role of strategic leader in our Wanderer armies. Not a lot has to change with this unit, but consider enhancing this key role as follows:

• Allow the Nomad Prince to buff the one defense we have against strong units hitting our units: Eternal Guard. If the EG are going to need to stand still to use Fortress of Boughs, allow the Nomad Prince to mitigate this limitation in some way. Justify it by staying that the Nomad Prince can better coordinate these key troops. Here are some ideas:
  • EG within 6" of the Nomad Prince during the Combat phase may pile in even while maintaining their Fortress of Boughs ability.
  • EG within 6" of the Nomad Prince may move (but not run) and still employ their Fortress of Boughs ability.
  • Pick a unit of EG within 12" of the Nomad Prince. Enemy units cannot move within 6" of that unit of EG during their movement phase unless they charge.

Wizards

Spellweaver. Our Wizard is a fairly nice hero unit, and at 80 pts she's one of the few Wanderer troops that don't feel overpriced. She's nothing spectacular, but her ability to automatically unbind one spell a game is nice. Theoretically the best thing about the Spellweaver is the ability to cast a magic that revives Wanderers. Her spell is thematic and for the most part useful, though at times it feels a bit under-powered.  The problem is that it hardly ever pays to use the ability on a non-cavalry unit, unless you're trying to bump Glade Guard above the 20 model 3+ to hit threshold. In a war of attrition reviving D3 1 wound models is never really as good as a simple mystic shield unless you're totally out of danger (which is almost never). So while the TGA Community feels the Spellweaver should mostly remain as is, we have two suggestions regarding her spell that would make her slightly more appealing and versatile in games (and maybe worth 100 pts instead of 80...we're willing to pay for good units):

• Consider allowing the Spellweaver's unique spell to revive D6 wounds of models, rounding up. This would mean that when the spell is cast on 1 wound models we would revive D6 models, whereas on 2 wound cavalry it would revive D3 models. Since we have no 3 wound models anything higher is a non-issue.
• Consider allowing the Spellweaver's unique spell to revive Aelves rather than only Wanderers. That simple change would make her an excellent ally in other Aelf armies or an integral part of a mixed order army. For Wanderer allegiance armies, it would mean we could have Aelven allies who could benefit from her magic, making our faction more flexible.

[Yeled]

Some suggestions that have been mentioned over on the Let's Chat Wanderers thread:

@WABBIT

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I'd suggest some sort of synergy with forests and maybe wyld woods or a save vs the mortal wounds from deadly forest terrain. And melt away for wild riders could include charging not just shooting.

Honestly I think these are really good ideas. They build off of melt away and hidden paths and fit into a theme of mobility and skirmishing. I'll try to refine these a bit below.

@WABBIT

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So now all GW need to do is;

• add 2 wounds to the glade lord on dragon so he matchs all the other dragons in AoS (most of whom are cheaper!!)
• drop wild riders to 120pts and give them -1 Rend on charge in addition to their +1 to wound on charge.
• give the  avatar of the hunt the ability to reroll nearby  wild riders charge  and give the riders 1 extra attack.
• Allow woodelves to ally with wanderers or just regain wanderers keyword.
• drop wild wood rangers to 140pts as they have less armour than other elites and a niche ability rarely used.
• give all wanderers and woodelves immunity from wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. At least give it to Wyld woodrangers!!!!!
• fix azyr so the correct wander command traits are listed. "Hunting hawk" is not a command trait. Myst walker is missing.
• fix azyr so that wanderers allies appear when selected. Currently nothing comes up....
• fix warscroll builder to show eternal guard as wanderer battle line.
• Drop glade guard to 100pts and give them massive regiments option at 240. Or just massive regiments option for 300pts at least.
• allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move and drop their points to 200. Give them massive regiments cost of 500.
• give us some new awesome warhawk/ eagle rider models.
• reduce kurnoth hunters to 200pts so we can get 2 units in a 2000pt game  pleaaaaassssseeee!
• give us a hug.

This is an interesting list, but maybe a bit too all inclusive, especially since many of these guys are no longer Wanderers. One thing that I think comes up over and over, including in these suggestions above, is simply the idea that Wanderers should be, first and foremost, a skirmish army. That means they can be squishy, but they should be hard to engage. If the Wanderers were squishy but fast, with hard hitting archery and frustratingly difficult to engage, I think we'd really have a great army to play. I'll try to come up with some ideas based on that theme and your list and post them below later tonight (running out of time or I'd do it now).

[WABBIT]

To be fair I wrote that list with my tongue in my cheek.  But I was dead serious about the hug.

 A word of warning about slippery shooting armies - they aren't a lot of fun to fight. If your opponent doesn't enjoy losing to you you  won't enjoy beating them.  People want a fight. 

ambushing should be a thing like appearing closer than 9" and getting more advantageous charges. Or co-ordinated charges gaining bonuses. Wild riders have good potential for this. Hit and run ride by attacks.  

A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit engaging the same enemy unit? And/or select an enemy unit, all wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. A battalion rule maybe? It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 

Better snipers and access to mortal wounds. Other armies do it better. Wanderers should at least contend the title of best archers. 

180-220 is too much for 10  1 wound 5+ save models. (Sotw and rangers) kurnoth hunters are still way better for same Pts. Too risky investing in those units. 

Alter current bravery buffs for being in cover and shooting buffs for not moving to something like -1 to be hit if you run. Or ambush bonus to hit on the turn you use hidden pathways etc. Encourage movement in appropriate units. Dwarves dig in, elves manuever. 

These are just suggestions so don't take them too definitively. It's the flavour we are after. 

 

[Tidings]

• More effective/affordable calvary. Palladors are incredible and cost about the same as SotT, there's no comparison between their effectiveness.  High elf Reavers have a more Wanderer themed ability than any Wanderers as well, would like some of that!
• Some way to utilize hit and run better. We don't have any real access to 30" range shots so we tend to be pretty close to the enemy. And shooting after retreating is fine and all but we often die the turn we are charged, forcing us to use EG or allies to soak combat. This becomes gunline instead of skirmish. Instead, keep abilities promoting gunline to a minimum and give us something that rewards in and out combat, like a -1 to hit during the first round of cc. That way we can afford to actually skirmish and use Melt Away instead of dying when anything other than static EG enters combat. 
• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better, or with more range we could play more like the archers we are. Maybe instead of more speed, enemies could have a -x to their charge rolls against us, representing Wanderers' rapid advances and retreats making charges difficult to time against them?
• We need something that does mortal wounds. Arcane bolt is laughably inadequate against almost every army. 
• Some intersting synergies would be nice! Skirmishers should be about supporting and coordinating attacks and retreats. Maybe we can get stuff like a +1 to hit against targets engaged in cc against one of your units, or a double distance retreat when another of your units remains in cc with the enemy unit you're retreating from, etc.
• Would enjoy interesting support units. The Shadowdancers spell was awesome, and so was the spell Teclis had. Having ways to alter enemy and friendly unit's movement is something that is exciting and different, and it really fits the theme of Wanderers. 

I'll edit this post as I think of more!

EDIT: I typed this out but couldn't send for a bit - just saw @WABBIT post where we basically have the same suggestions!

[Yeled]

51 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

To be fair I wrote that list with my tongue in my cheek.  But I was dead serious about the hug.

 A word of warning about slippery shooting armies - they aren't a lot of fun to fight. If your opponent doesn't enjoy losing to you you  won't enjoy beating them.  People want a fight. 

ambushing should be a thing like appearing closer than 9" and getting more advantageous charges. Or co-ordinated charges gaining bonuses. Wild riders have good potential for this. Hit and run ride by attacks.  

A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit engaging the same enemy unit? And/or select an enemy unit, all wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. A battalion rule maybe? It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 

Better snipers and access to mortal wounds. Other armies do it better. Wanderers should at least contend the title of best archers. 

180-220 is too much for 10  1 wound 5+ save models. (Sotw and rangers) kurnoth hunters are still way better for same Pts. Too risky investing in those units. 

Alter current bravery buffs for being in cover and shooting buffs for not moving to something like -1 to be hit if you run. Or ambush bonus to hit on the turn you use hidden pathways etc. Encourage movement in appropriate units. Dwarves dig in, elves manuever. 

These are just suggestions so don't take them too definitively. It's the flavour we are after. 

 

I realized the list I quoted above was somewhat frustration-based, but even so I think there is some good stuff in there. As there is some in this most recent post. I think your warning of slippery armies being unfun to fight is well taken. I think the most important thing is the last line, though: "These are just suggestions so don't take them too definitively. It's the flavour we are after. "

I don't think I want to list specific rule suggestions in the first post so much as concepts that could lead to rules. If you take your ideas and organize them you start to see patterns:

You've mentioned Hit-and-Run tactics and Ambushes several times. I love the idea of Wild Riders melting away and charging in right away, allowing them to be a fast moving, light cavalry unit that jumps in and out of combat quickly. But no matter how that plays out the overall theme of "Hit-and-Run tactics" is a good one. All of these rules you suggested fit in Hit-and-Run/Ambushes:

• melt away for wild riders could include charging not just shooting.
• Alter ... shooting buffs for not moving to something like -1 to be hit if you run.
• ambush bonus to hit on the turn you use hidden pathways etc.
• allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move. 
• Encourage movement in appropriate units (not really specific but fits here).
• A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit engaging the same enemy unit? And/or select an enemy unit, all wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. A battalion rule maybe? It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 

Another theme I've gathered from your posts and others on the main Wanderers chat is Elite Archers. 

• Better snipers and access to mortal wounds.

I also think you bring up the idea of Synergy with Scenery. You focus on forests but there's no reason other scenery pieces couldn't be included.  These are Wanderers and not just wood elves. They already get cover bonuses to bravery but why not more? It could actually fit into your ambush ideas above to say that scenery is helpful to Wanderers. Perhaps they can use Hidden Paths from Scenery to the table edge, with a model or WSB or ability that lets them go the other direction once per game.

• synergy with forests and maybe wyld woods or a save vs the mortal wounds from deadly forest terrain.
• give all wanderers and woodelves immunity from wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. At least give it to Wyld woodrangers!!!!!

So I'm going to grab those three items as take-aways from your posts. I think there are a lot of great rules ideas that might come out of these:

• Ambushes/Hit-and-Run
• Elite Archers
• Synergy with Scenery

 

[Yeled]

31 minutes ago, Tidings said:

• More effective/affordable calvary. Palladors are incredible and cost about the same as SotT, there's no comparison between their effectiveness.  High elf Reavers have a more Wanderer themed ability than any wanderers as well, would like some of that!
• Some way to utilize hit and run better. We don't have any real access to 30" range shots so we tend to be pretty close to the enemy. And shooting after retreating is fine and all but we often die the turn we are charged, forcing us to use EG or allies to soak combat. This becomes gunline instead of skirmish. Instead, keep abilities promoting gunline to a minimum and give us something that rewards in and out combat, like a -1 to hit during the first round of cc. That way we can afford to actually skirmish and use Melt Away instead of dying when anything other than static EG enters combat. 
• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better, or with more range we could play more like the archers we are. Maybe instead of more speed, enemies could have a -x to their charge rolls against us, representing Wanderers' rapid advances and retreats making charges difficult to time against them?
• We need something that does mortal wounds. Arcane bolt is laughably inadequate against almost every army.
• Some intersting synergies would be nice! Skirmishers should be about supporting and coordinating attacks and retreats. Maybe we can get stuff like a +1 to hit against targets engaged in cc against one of your units, or a double distance retreat when another of your units remains in cc with the enemy unit you're retreating from, etc.
• Would enjoy interesting support units. The Shadowdancers spell was awesome, and so was the spell Teclis had. Having ways to alter enemy and friendly unit's movement is something that is exciting and different, and it really fits the theme of Wanderers. 

I'll edit this post as I think of more!

EDIT: I typed this out but couldn't send for a bit - just saw @WABBIT post where we basically have the same suggestions!

These are great. I really like the -x to charge against Wanderer units to represent that it's hard to charge them. An alternative would be to allow a Wanderer unit to move D3" when it is charged. Just to take Wabbit's themes and add your ideas:

Ambushes/Hit-and-Run/Skirmishing:

• melt away for wild riders could include charging not just shooting.
• Alter ... shooting buffs for not moving to something like -1 to be hit if you run.
• ambush bonus to hit on the turn you use hidden pathways etc.
• allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move. 
• Encourage movement in appropriate units (not really specific but fits here).
• keep abilities promoting gunline to a minimum and give us something that rewards in and out combat, like a -1 to hit during the first round of cc.
• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better, or with more range we could play more like the archers we are.
• Maybe instead of more speed, enemies could have a -x to their charge rolls against us, representing Wanderers' rapid advances and retreats making charges difficult to time against them?
• Would enjoy interesting support units. The Shadowdancers spell was awesome, and so was the spell Teclis had. Having ways to alter enemy and friendly unit's movement is something that is exciting and different, and it really fits the theme of Wanderers. 

Elite Archers. 

• Better snipers and access to mortal wounds.
• We need something that does mortal wounds. Arcane bolt is laughably inadequate against almost every army.

Synergy with Scenery

• synergy with forests and maybe wyld woods or a save vs the mortal wounds from deadly forest terrain.
• give all wanderers and woodelves immunity from wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. At least give it to Wyld woodrangers!!!!!

Synergies/Traps/Supportive Attacks

• A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit engaging the same enemy unit? And/or select an enemy unit, all wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. A battalion rule maybe? It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 
• Some intersting synergies would be nice! Skirmishers should be about supporting and coordinating attacks and retreats. Maybe we can get stuff like a +1 to hit against targets engaged in cc against one of your units, or a double distance retreat when another of your units remains in cc with the enemy unit you're retreating from, etc.

 

 

[Yeled]

I have a couple ideas of my own.  They echo some of the ideas above, but tackle them a little differently.

• The Realm Wanderers hidden paths ability is very cool and thematic, but don't force Wanderers to hide by the edge of the table. Give us an ability or abilities that allow Wanderers to use these Realm Wanderers Hidden Paths via scenery as if it were the edge of a table (limiting this to once per game or via a specific model like a Wayfinder would be fine). (Ambushes, Hit-and-Run)
• Give us reasons to use heroes other than Waywatcher Lord and the Nomad Prince. Unique abilities like being able to lead units using the Realm Wanderers hidden paths ability to scenery would make adding other heroes more desirable. Or give someone a long range with his or her bow, creating a sniper type model.
• I don't like that they encourage us to use huge units, or force us to stand still to buff. I'd much rather see unit synergies give us bonuses. For example, small groups of Glade Guard could get a +1 to hit so long as another Glade Guard unit is within 12 inches of it. (synergies)

Also, I didn't mean to leave the better cavalry idea out.  

• I think Wild Riders are mostly fine as light, fast moving cavalry.  We don't need them to be Chaos Knights. But make them even better at being light, fast moving cavalry. Give them the ability to Melt Away and Charge and add a -1 rend when they charge (combining Wabbit's ideas). If they could strike fast by running and charging, then melt out of combat only to charge in again on another unit, they would be pretty effective.
• Give us some mounted archers with the ability to run and shoot and or duplicate the Reavers ability.
• We need a mounted hero or hero options. 

[WABBIT]

Love all those ideas, using any scenery to travel from or to is a great  idea. 

Reaver like wanderer cav are great too. 

 

GHB is promoting large horde units but I think wanderers need to go in the opposite direction. It will provide contrast to other armies and be a disadvantage when facing horde units claiming objectives etc which is fine. 

In keeping with the 2017 horde theme we could have a new spell that summons hundreds of angry forest wabbits or desert wabbits what ever terrain we are in or Racoons and other forest denizens.  No reinforcement points 

gypsy caravan hurricanum? 

No, two gypsy caravan hurricanums!

Glamours?

prepared terrain - traps in d3 terrain before a battle choose secretly where they are. They can prevent movement for a turn or do mortal wounds or debuff to hit or remove cover bonus making it useless for a phase/turn.

Small units of archers are more resilient and  much more in keeping with the wanderer theme. Having to buy 30 to get that vital 3 to hit is a big battalion foot print and ruins the theme of a wanderer list. It's also prone to huge battleshock losses.  Getting 20 is pointless as one death means they lose their bonus to hit. Rather than give Glade guard massive regiments I think majeing them no bigger fight than 20 and always having 3 to hit is better. They still need a price drop.  

as a genarral rule for all armies with units who get Large unit bonuses it should be more like dryads who only lose the big unit bonus at less than 12 models so we have a buffer before losing the ability. 

[WABBIT]

Also There is also no reason why we can use these abilities and ideas above in open play games. just discuss and agree them with your opponents. Especially if you're losing every game. If you do try any we would be interested to hear how they go, which are the most fun etc 

[Tidings]

Suggestion - maybe keep the living wishlist in the original post you made, so it's easy to see all the suggestions without scrolling through the comments? And a couple more notes! 

• The running and shooting on Glade Riders was useless compared to the ability Reavers have. with a 20" bow, I'm not wanting to move much except to kite my enemy. Any movement I do is to keep him away from me. Running doesn't help me do that since I'll just move out of range. The Reavers' ability is just flat out better, since it can be done before or after shooting (to get in range or back off again) and this really fits the flavor of Wanderers as skirmishers.
• Overall, I personally want a lower model count army that focuses on mobility, evading, and coordination/support between the units. I don't want to feel like I have lots of models that I can afford to lose. Guerrilla warfare is fought by forces that have less troops - they can't afford loss of life. As much as we could benefit from chaff units to slow down the enemy while we shoot at them, it doesn't fit the flavor of Wanderers to me. They are the nomadic remnants of an already small population, and their playstyle should represent that!
• Following the previous point, I just want to voice my agreement that GG's +hit buff would be way more interesting coming from nearby units or coordinated fire than it currently does from the 20+. Dark Elves have cool rules allowing them to gain the unit size benefits from having MSU nearby - this is a cool and interesting buff. Something like this fits the theme of Wanderers better, as well as fitting the playstyle the new allegiance abilities offer.
• Finally, I actually think the restriction of teleporting on table edges is great. It is a natural balancing factor since most objectives are in the center. Also, it fits the flavor of Wanderers very well, with them appearing and disappearing all around the enemy from different sides. If they could show up in the middle of the table, that would be taking what's unique from Sylvaneth. 

[Yeled]

7 minutes ago, Tidings said:

Suggestion - maybe keep the living wishlist in the original post you made, so it's easy to see all the suggestions without scrolling through the comments? And a couple more notes! 

• The running and shooting on Glade Riders was useless compared to the ability Reavers have. with a 20" bow, I'm not wanting to move much except to kite my enemy. Any movement I do is to keep him away from me. Running doesn't help me do that since I'll just move out of range. The Reavers' ability is just flat out better, since it can be done before or after shooting (to get in range or back off again) and this really fits the flavor of Wanderers as skirmishers.
• Overall, I personally want a lower model count army that focuses on mobility, evading, and coordination/support between the units. I don't want to feel like I have lots of models that I can afford to lose. Guerrilla warfare is fought by forces that have less troops - they can't afford loss of life. As much as we could benefit from chaff units to slow down the enemy while we shoot at them, it doesn't fit the flavor of Wanderers to me. They are the nomadic remnants of an already small population, and their playstyle should represent that!
• Following the previous point, I just want to voice my agreement that GG's +hit buff would be way more interesting coming from nearby units or coordinated fire than it currently does from the 20+. Dark Elves have cool rules allowing them to gain the unit size benefits from having MSU nearby - this is a cool and interesting buff. Something like this fits the theme of Wanderers better, as well as fitting the playstyle the new allegiance abilities offer.
• Finally, I actually think the restriction of teleporting on table edges is great. It is a natural balancing factor since most objectives are in the center. Also, it fits the flavor of Wanderers very well, with them appearing and disappearing all around the enemy from different sides. If they could show up in the middle of the table, that would be taking what's unique from Sylvaneth. 

Yeah, I will keep the living wishlist in the first post. I just want to get our list a bit more refined rather than post all our ideas there right away. Otherwise it's a little more messy than I'd like, and I want people to refute ideas as well before they are posted in the first thread. Your comment about not teleporting into the middle is well taken. But I'll put something there by the end of the night.

 

Living list update:

Ambushes/Hit-and-Run/Skirmishing:

• melt away for wild riders could include charging not just shooting.
• Alter ... shooting buffs for not moving to something like -1 to be hit if you run.
• ambush bonus to hit on the turn you use hidden pathways etc.
• allow sisters of the watch to shoot twice even if they move. 
• Encourage movement in appropriate units (not really specific but fits here).
• keep abilities promoting gunline to a minimum and give us something that rewards in and out combat, like a -1 to hit during the first round of cc.
• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better, or with more range we could play more like the archers we are.
• Maybe instead of more speed, enemies could have a -x to their charge rolls against us, representing Wanderers' rapid advances and retreats making charges difficult to time against them?
•  Having ways to alter enemy and friendly unit's movement is something that is exciting and different, and it really fits the theme of Wanderers. 

Smaller Units, Focus on Survival

• Overall, I personally want a lower model count army that focuses on mobility, evading, and coordination/support between the units. I don't want to feel like I have lots of models that I can afford to lose. Guerrilla warfare is fought by forces that have less troops - they can't afford loss of life. As much as we could benefit from chaff units to slow down the enemy while we shoot at them, it doesn't fit the flavor of Wanderers to me. They are the nomadic remnants of an already small population, and their playstyle should represent that!
• Small units of archers are more resilient and  much more in keeping with the wanderer theme. Having to buy 30 to get that vital 3 to hit is a big battalion foot print and ruins the theme of a wanderer list. It's also prone to huge battleshock losses.  Getting 20 is pointless as one death means they lose their bonus to hit. Rather than give Glade guard massive regiments I think majeing them no bigger fight than 20 and always having 3 to hit is better. They still need a price drop. 
• GHB is promoting large horde units but I think wanderers need to go in the opposite direction. It will provide contrast to other armies and be a disadvantage when facing horde units claiming objectives etc which is fine. 

Elite Archers. 

• Better snipers and access to mortal wounds.
• We need something that does mortal wounds. Arcane bolt is laughably inadequate against almost every army.
• Give us reasons to use heroes other than Waywatcher Lord and the Nomad Prince. Or give someone a long range with his or her bow, creating a sniper type model.

Better Cavalry, in keeping with Skirmish Tactics

• The running and shooting on Glade Riders was useless compared to the ability Reavers have. with a 20" bow, I'm not wanting to move much except to kite my enemy. Any movement I do is to keep him away from me. Running doesn't help me do that since I'll just move out of range. The Reavers' ability is just flat out better, since it can be done before or after shooting (to get in range or back off again) and this really fits the flavor of Wanderers as skirmishers.
• I think Wild Riders are mostly fine as light, fast moving cavalry.  We don't need them to be Chaos Knights. But make them even better at being light, fast moving cavalry. Give them the ability to Melt Away and Charge and add a -1 rend when they charge (combining Wabbit's ideas). If they could strike fast by running and charging, then melt out of combat only to charge in again on another unit, they would be pretty effective.
• Give us some mounted archers with the ability to run and shoot and or duplicate the Reavers ability.
• We need a mounted hero or hero options. 

Synergy with Scenery

• synergy with forests and maybe wyld woods or a save vs the mortal wounds from deadly forest terrain.
• give all wanderers and woodelves immunity from wyld wood roused to wrath attacks and dangerous terrain rules. At least give it to Wyld woodrangers!!!!!
• Glamours?
• prepared terrain - traps in d3 terrain before a battle choose secretly where they are. They can prevent movement for a turn or do mortal wounds or debuff to hit or remove cover bonus making it useless for a phase/turn.
• The Realm Wanderers hidden paths ability is very cool and thematic, but don't force Wanderers to hide by the edge of the table. Give us an ability or abilities that allow Wanderers to use these Realm Wanderers Hidden Paths via scenery as if it were the edge of a table (limiting this to once per game or via a specific model like a Wayfinder would be fine). (Ambushes, Hit-and-Run)
  • (Refutation) I actually think the restriction of teleporting on table edges is great. It is a natural balancing factor since most objectives are in the center. Also, it fits the flavor of Wanderers very well, with them appearing and disappearing all around the enemy from different sides. If they could show up in the middle of the table, that would be taking what's unique from Sylvaneth. 

Synergies/Traps/Supportive Attacks

• A bonus to hit or wound for every wanderer unit engaging the same enemy unit? And/or select an enemy unit, all wanderer units attacking it can attack before the enemy can pick a unit to attack. A bit like the forest dragon breath ability. A battalion rule maybe? It would encourage MSU combats and a focus on setting up multiple charges or traps with eternal guard anvils. 
• Would enjoy interesting support units. The Shadowdancers spell was awesome, and so was the spell Teclis had.
• Some intersting synergies would be nice! Skirmishers should be about supporting and coordinating attacks and retreats. Maybe we can get stuff like a +1 to hit against targets engaged in cc against one of your units, or a double distance retreat when another of your units remains in cc with the enemy unit you're retreating from, etc.
• I don't like that they encourage us to use huge units, or force us to stand still to buff. I'd much rather see unit synergies give us bonuses. For example, small groups of Glade Guard could get a +1 to hit so long as another Glade Guard unit is within 12 inches of it. 
• I just want to voice my agreement that GG's +hit buff would be way more interesting coming from nearby units or coordinated fire than it currently does from the 20+. Dark Elves have cool rules allowing them to gain the unit size benefits from having MSU nearby - this is a cool and interesting buff. Something like this fits the theme of Wanderers better, as well as fitting the playstyle the new allegiance abilities offer.
• Give us reasons to use heroes other than Waywatcher Lord and the Nomad Prince. 

[Yeled]

First post updated.

Also, I had a couple other thoughts while I was doing it. Too tired to write them up now but I thought I'd jot some notes:

• @WABBIT's Glamours comment got me thinking about illusions and fairy magic. Should we push the idea that the Wanderers are more fey than traditional wood elves? Could they use illusion magic or glamours that charm or befuddle?
• I want to do a section on units. I feel we didn't really address Wyldwood Rangers and Eternal Guard much so far. Maybe we could have sections talking about modifications to existing units and a second section on the types of additional units we might want to see.

 

[Nubgan]

9 hours ago, Yeled said:

Elite Archers. Man, we feel a little salty about how mediocre our archers are. Other armies do archery better than us. They shoot farther or hit harder or fire more volleys. It's a little sad when the vaunted Wanderer archers are outgunned in the range department. For Wanderers, we don't need to shoot the farthest or hardest, but make us the most accurate. Make armies fear our bows. We rely on archery to win, so play up how excellent our shooters are. A lot of armies get more bang for their points buck than we do. We need to feel we're pound for pound among the best archers in the game.

• More speed or more range! There are so many ways to cross the entire table and charge in one turn, or teleport on top of us, that we are forced to make a gunline. By giving us more speed we could kite better (keeping enemies in our range but us out of theirs), or with more range we could play more like the  skirmishing archers we are.

Better Cavalry, in keeping with Skirmish Tactics. We're a light cavalry army. We get that. We don't need chaos knight type damage output. But if we're going to be a employing light cavalry force to supplement our skirmishing archers, make them excellent at what they do.

• Give us some mounted archers that are effective at skirmishing and kiting. The running and shooting on Glade Riders was useless compared to the ability Reavers have. With a 20" bow, we don't not want to move much except to kite my enemy. Any movement we do is to keep the enemy away. Running doesn't help do that since we'll just move out of range. The Reavers' ability is just flat out better, since it can be done before or after shooting (to get in range or back off again) and this really fits the flavor of Wanderers as skirmishers.

Point 1: I don't necessarily think the range thing is an issue, its way better on Glade Guard that nearly every other unit out there for range, definately the ability to kite though needs to be improved somehow given the army traits etc. The only things that have more range really are Stormcast, but you can imagine they are able to pull a bow string back harder. Perhaps reword that one?

 

Point 2: Just make Glade Riders proper wanderers again. It always baffled me that they were moved to compendium, and they are pretty decent without needing to improve stats and I think the ability to Run is nice because you can literally change fire to targets easier with there crazy range they get with the extra movement. Maybe a nice points drop and adjustment of the unit sizes, 8 is a bit silly given a couple of models get put out of range because of the footprint it covers.

 

[jazzy128]

I like everything about this post! And I think your ideas are both flavourful and relevant. The Wanderers seems to be very poorly thought out thematically, and I think your propositions adress almost every weak link in their current composition.
I  understand why GW would make the compendium scrolls unaccessible so they can focus on what they sell, And the allegiance abilities are in many ways spot on. Unfortunately the units just does not fit with current AoS. There are just no real choices, no real synergies, and no real feel to the army.

[tom_gore]

And the dragon! Oh god why the dragon lost its wanderer status? At least bring out a new wanderer dragon kit so we can proxy, pretty pls

[WABBIT]

3 hours ago, Nubgan said:

Point 1: I don't necessarily think the range thing is an issue, its way better on Glade Guard that nearly every other unit out there for range, definately the ability to kite though needs to be improved somehow given the army traits etc. The only things that have more range really are Stormcast, but you can imagine they are able to pull a bow string back harder. Perhaps reword that one?

 

Point 2: Just make Glade Riders proper wanderers again. It always baffled me that they were moved to compendium, and they are pretty decent without needing to improve stats and I think the ability to Run is nice because you can literally change fire to targets easier with there crazy range they get with the extra movement. Maybe a nice points drop and adjustment of the unit sizes, 8 is a bit silly given a couple of models get put out of range because of the footprint it covers.

 

Regarding point 1. Remember Movement is range and many units move faster than us. Shooting isn't just performed by archers either. Thunder tusks and their ridiculous move + 6 mortal wound ranged attack on 2+ for example or Kurnoth Hunter bolt throwers with 30" range etc. All those war machines out there are shooting further and hitting harder too. Reavers firing 3 times a turn plus fast move Plus extra move before or after shooting is perfect for wanderers but they are swift hawks now. Many armies have heroes with good sniping skills too. Wanderers lag far behind.

When AoS replaced 8th ed. Aelves lost their elite stats but kept their elite points values. This forced many Aelf players to either choose a new army, suffer continuous humiliating defeats or stop playing for a couple of years.

Glass cannons should be cheap because they are very easy to kill. Kurnoth Hunters for example are extremely tough and they hit very hard at very long range. They are the same price now as SotW. I know which i prefer, sisters are too easy to remove from the table and having better offense doesn't matter if you cannot stick around to use it. If they were cheaper we could offset their weakness by numbers. 

[Yawn]

Some interesting suggestions in here - are some of you veteran Wood Elf players from pre-8th edition? The yearning for a guerrilla/skirmish army definitely reminds me of how we played years ago when we were a never seen army that often fielded nothing but skirmishers. The current Wanderers aren't that dissimilar to 8th edition Wood Elves imo, but I can definitely see why people want a return to the old play-style.

Also, I think its fair to say we have next to no hope of seeing a Battletome & new releases for the Wanderers, or for any of the old Elves for that matter. Still worth putting this stuff out there though!

[Nubgan]

13 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

Regarding point 1. Remember Movement is range and many units move faster than us. Shooting isn't just performed by archers either. Thunder tusks and their ridiculous move + 6 mortal wound ranged attack on 2+ for example or Kurnoth Hunter bolt throwers with 30" range etc. All those war machines out there are shooting further and hitting harder too. Reavers firing 3 times a turn plus fast move Plus extra move before or after shooting is perfect for wanderers but they are swift hawks now. Many armies have heroes with good sniping skills too. Wanderers lag far behind.

When AoS replaced 8th ed. Aelves lost their elite stats but kept their elite points values. This forced many Aelf players to either choose a new army, suffer continuous humiliating defeats or stop playing for a couple of years.

Glass cannons should be cheap because they are very easy to kill. Kurnoth Hunters for example are extremely tough and they hit very hard at very long range. They are the same price now as SotW. I know which i prefer, sisters are too easy to remove from the table and having better offense doesn't matter if you cannot stick around to use it. If they were cheaper we could offset their weakness by numbers. 

You are singling out really 'elite' low ,model count units here to compare them with, Glade Guard SHOULD NOT be that. Compared to other infantry models, Glade guard are faster and do have a longer range, but like you say, they are a bit expensive for 10 wounds. If you compared a Waywatcher to these more Elite units, then they do stack, might not be a Stonehorn, but how many Waywatchers fit into a Stonehorn?

Secondly, if compared to Kurnoth hunters, I think this highlight the inherent lack of toughness the army may have, but even then Eternal Guard are no soggy kit kats and should probably be inviting people to shoot them instead through positioning.

Final point, your right, if the units were cheaper you probably wouldn't feel so sad when you turn up with a low model count compared to something like Free People and then get severely outshot. Because Glade guard are Battleline, could they not offer them a horde discount been as they are a shooty army? I think the Wyldwood Rangers were a joke effort and token choice that went wrong really because they should be attacking monsters that can't be fully attacked because of the smaller footprint compared to the block of rangers.

If they insist on keeping the Rangers as the horde unit, could they not have a stance dance to be better against regular infantry plonked onto there warscroll?

20 minutes ago, Yawn said:

Some interesting suggestions in here - are some of you veteran Wood Elf players from pre-8th edition? The yearning for a guerrilla/skirmish army definitely reminds me of how we played years ago when we were a never seen army that often fielded nothing but skirmishers. The current Wanderers aren't that dissimilar to 8th edition Wood Elves imo, but I can definitely see why people want a return to the old play-style.

Also, I think its fair to say we have next to no hope of seeing a Battletome & new releases for the Wanderers, or for any of the old Elves for that matter. Still worth putting this stuff out there though!

I think the 8th Edition codex release fundamentally changed how Wood Elves could operate at the time and then they took away the possibility of things like speed, killy close combat troops and monsters when they split them up in AoS. Dark Elves and High Elves also have the same issues. 

 

[Aezeal]

I think sisters are elite archers, sure points as they are they are not more effective than gg.. But that is balance.. but 3+/3+ and able to shoot twice(if not moving) and when charged is pretty elite compared to a lot of other human sized archers.

I do think that with all very fast moving units and teleport abilities the range of our bows is inadequate on every unit.

Wild riders are still too expensive, sisters a bit too. 

Wyld wood rangers are a niche unit and another infantry option that is more general useable but elite would be nice.

Our 2 useless heroes should get support abilities that are good and not command abilities, force multipliers (I posted a ton of options for that in the other topic before).

[WABBIT]

Well I wasn't trying to compare GG like for like with other battleline archers as its sort of pointless. I was highlighting the general gap in shooting for wanderers compared to other armies as a whole. GG are our main shooters so they are obvious focus for this debate. If we did compare like for like then its obvious wanderers are under powered - Free Guild get lots of buffs and synergies and can get 2+ to hit easily and regiment support mechanics etc, Savage orruks can fire 7 shots a turn with 2 wounds a model and better fighting stats plus a ward save for less points! Wanderers lose out on every comparison I try. Rangers vs any other Aelf elites (never mind other armies) stack up very poorly. Wild Riders vs Gore Gruntas we fairt very badly.

Anyway let's not focus too much on how poor wanderer units are as its becomes off putting. Lets focus on what we could be capable of.

[WABBIT]

Something I think about when I'm working out what is efficient or worth its points or not is a basic points value expectation. I've seen Tidings do this and  then make considered estimations on how much an ability is worth or perceived to be worth to come up with his conclusions. I think most of us do the same albeit in different ways. Working out formulas on how to estimate a units true worth as opposed to its points value is a game in itself  I try for quick estimated values not in depth analysis as this takes too long and leads down rabbit holes.

For example I find this works for a quick surface estimation of whether I think is worth its points or not:

I always use this as a bottom line for what i want from my points:

100pts should get you:

1. 10 wounds at 5+
2. 10 attacks at 4/4/-/1
3. 5-6" move
4. Several minor abilities like Bravery for standards, Re-roll charge rolls of one etc
5. A good unit defining ability. Battle line tend to get more buffs the larger the unit for example. Tree Revenants get way pipes etc.

Anything less than this and it's not worth it. For every extra attack, move distance increase, range attack, rend etc it should increases points or they can be counterbalanced by less models, slower move, less armour, lower to hit/wound etc.

For example Tree Revs have only 5 wounds (or models) at 5+ Save but 10 attacks per unit *with Rend -1 and a major ability way pipes. (more attacks with Champ I know) so going down to 80 pts is good value overall as its 20 under but lack of wounds is a smaller gap (say 3 wounds) and they have a major way pipe ability. The fact they are easy to kill warrants their lower points value than 100. Remember having fewer models is in itself a benefit as it allows you concentrate more power into a smaller space. This is why Cavalry outside of Storm cast armies are seen as under par. They cannot get enough bodies into the fight. That's why wild riders never perform well.  There is an argument more models means greater board coverage which is an advantage in some match ups and battle plans so again it's about unit roles.

Units like Savage orcs, Skaven and goblins etc get way more for 100pts than Aelves. They get 2 wounds per 10pts spent, 1 to 3 attacks per man and often better combat stats that our GG battleline (only 5/5/-/1 same as goblins which is an insult to graceful aelves :D) and GG are over 100pts or 10pts per man at 120pt or 12 pts per model. Armies like Skaven, Orruks and Goblins have access to better buffs and battalion rules too. Yes Range is different and combat stats are different but they cancel each other out and you're left with an opponent with twice the number of wounds for less points. That's what irks Wanderer players.

 

How do you nice peeps reading this estimate or verify a units true worth? do you have a system or a yard stick to compare them against? 

[Nubgan]

7 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

Something I think about when I'm working out what is efficient or worth its points or not is a basic points value expectation. I've seen Tidings do this and  then make considered estimations on how much an ability is worth or perceived to be worth to come up with his conclusions. I think most of us do the same albeit in different ways. Working out formulas on how to estimate a units true worth as opposed to its points value is a game in itself  I try for quick estimated values not in depth analysis as this takes too long and leads down rabbit holes.

For example I find this works for a quick surface estimation of whether I think is worth its points or not:

I always use this as a bottom line for what i want from my points:

100pts should get you:

1. 10 wounds at 5+
2. 10 attacks at 4/4/-/1
3. 5-6" move
4. Several minor abilities like Bravery for standards, Re-roll charge rolls of one etc
5. A good unit defining ability. Battle line tend to get more buffs the larger the unit for example. Tree Revenants get way pipes etc.

Anything less than this and it's not worth it. For every extra attack, move distance increase, range attack, rend etc it should increases points or they can be counterbalanced by less models, slower move, less armour, lower to hit/wound etc.

For example Tree Revs have only 5 wounds (or models) at 5+ Save but 10 attacks per unit *with Rend -1 and a major ability way pipes. (more attacks with Champ I know) so going down to 80 pts is good value overall as its 20 under but lack of wounds is a smaller gap (say 3 wounds) and they have a major way pipe ability. The fact they are easy to kill warrants their lower points value than 100. Remember having fewer models is in itself a benefit as it allows you concentrate more power into a smaller space. This is why Cavalry outside of Storm cast armies are seen as under par. They cannot get enough bodies into the fight. That's why wild riders never perform well.  There is an argument more models means greater board coverage which is an advantage in some match ups and battle plans so again it's about unit roles.

Units like Savage orcs, Skaven and goblins etc get way more for 100pts than Aelves. They get 2 wounds per 10pts spent, 1 to 3 attacks per man and often better combat stats that our GG battleline (only 5/5/-/1 same as goblins which is an insult to graceful aelves :D) and GG are over 100pts or 10pts per man at 120pt or 12 pts per model. Armies like Skaven, Orruks and Goblins have access to better buffs and battalion rules too. Yes Range is different and combat stats are different but they cancel each other out and you're left with an opponent with twice the number of wounds for less points. That's what irks Wanderer players.

 

How do you nice peeps reading this estimate or verify a units true worth? do you have a system or a yard stick to compare them against? 

Its really hard to compare them against a lot of other things like you say, directly they do compare to other units but they lack the buffs (be it on the warscroll or external ones).

One thing I did think about after I wrote the last post, was that in 8th edition they had that huge plethora of ammunition types you could utilise and for 120pts for the 10 models, I think adding some different ammunition types could solve the problem perhaps?

Lets say for example, you had a few ammunition types:

1. Rapid Arrow +1 shooting Attack

2. Piercing Arrow -1 Rend 

3. Grr Arrow +1 damage (+D3 v Daemons/Dead)

4. Sniping Shot +6 inch Range

5. Stopping Shot -6 range, -3 movement

6. Barrage - Shoot without Line of sight.

You could only use each ammunition type once per battle, the whole unit would have to fire that type of arrow.

That way they wouldn't need heroes for buffing (unless having a charecter gave the arrow affects to a single unit) and it fits with previous rules in some way.

[Yeled]

3 hours ago, Nubgan said:

Its really hard to compare them against a lot of other things like you say, directly they do compare to other units but they lack the buffs (be it on the warscroll or external ones).

One thing I did think about after I wrote the last post, was that in 8th edition they had that huge plethora of ammunition types you could utilise and for 120pts for the 10 models, I think adding some different ammunition types could solve the problem perhaps?

Lets say for example, you had a few ammunition types:

1. Rapid Arrow +1 shooting Attack

2. Piercing Arrow -1 Rend 

3. Grr Arrow +1 damage (+D3 v Daemons/Dead)

4. Sniping Shot +6 inch Range

5. Stopping Shot -6 range, -3 movement

6. Barrage - Shoot without Line of sight.

You could only use each ammunition type once per battle, the whole unit would have to fire that type of arrow.

That way they wouldn't need heroes for buffing (unless having a charecter gave the arrow affects to a single unit) and it fits with previous rules in some way.

This is probably too complex for AoS, but bestowing the Glade Guard or Sisters of the Watch with the Waywatcher ability to choose two different shooting options, or something similar, could be viable.

I do agree with the sentiment above that Sisters are elite archers. Whether they are pound for pound worth their cost is another issue, but with a 3/3/-/1 profile and the option of two attacks they definitely fall into the elite category. I don't know that I want our wish list to be a discussion of relative points value, however. I think points will be ever changing and I'd rather see us focus on how the units should function.

That said, I wonder if we might discuss the uses and function of the Wyldwood Rangers and, to a lessor extent, the Eternal Guard. For the EG, a lot of our discussion has focused on how we want to downplay the gunline strategy, but EG are all about remaining stationary. Do people think they have a place in the hit and run skirmish army we've been discussing. Does their ability to get in the way for a low points cost make them worth it and function well...if there role is one of blocker, space occupier, and objective holder? Or should they be something else?

Regarding the Wyldwood Rangers, most people think they need to come down further in points because they are too squishy. But might there be a way to add value to them via an ability that fits the theme of the skirmish army. If they could get to monsters more easily they'd really have a place in our armies. Is the Realm Wanderers teleporting ability enough? It would be kind of cool if they were really hard to pin down until they wanted to engage in combat. To represent their ability to move about unseen, give them a -1 to hit when shooting at them in cover. Or perhaps they can declare they are moving unseen in the hero phase. If they do this, they can't charge that turn but the enemy can't charge them either. Alternatively, once you declare a charge against them you need to roll a 4 or higher if they are in a forest or some other type of cover.  Otherwise they slip by you and you can't charge them that round.

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Something I think about when I'm working out what is efficient or worth its points or not is a basic points value expectation. I've seen Tidings do this and  then make considered estimations on how much an ability is worth or perceived to be worth to come up with his conclusions. I think most of us do the same albeit in different ways. Working out formulas on how to estimate a units true worth as opposed to its points value is a game in itself  I try for quick estimated values not in depth analysis as this takes too long and leads down rabbit holes.

For example I find this works for a quick surface estimation of whether I think is worth its points or not:

I always use this as a bottom line for what i want from my points:

100pts should get you:

1. 10 wounds at 5+
2. 10 attacks at 4/4/-/1
3. 5-6" move
4. Several minor abilities like Bravery for standards, Re-roll charge rolls of one etc
5. A good unit defining ability. Battle line tend to get more buffs the larger the unit for example. Tree Revenants get way pipes etc.

Anything less than this and it's not worth it. For every extra attack, move distance increase, range attack, rend etc it should increases points or they can be counterbalanced by less models, slower move, less armour, lower to hit/wound etc.

For example Tree Revs have only 5 wounds (or models) at 5+ Save but 10 attacks per unit *with Rend -1 and a major ability way pipes. (more attacks with Champ I know) so going down to 80 pts is good value overall as its 20 under but lack of wounds is a smaller gap (say 3 wounds) and they have a major way pipe ability. The fact they are easy to kill warrants their lower points value than 100. Remember having fewer models is in itself a benefit as it allows you concentrate more power into a smaller space. This is why Cavalry outside of Storm cast armies are seen as under par. They cannot get enough bodies into the fight. That's why wild riders never perform well.  There is an argument more models means greater board coverage which is an advantage in some match ups and battle plans so again it's about unit roles.

Units like Savage orcs, Skaven and goblins etc get way more for 100pts than Aelves. They get 2 wounds per 10pts spent, 1 to 3 attacks per man and often better combat stats that our GG battleline (only 5/5/-/1 same as goblins which is an insult to graceful aelves :D) and GG are over 100pts or 10pts per man at 120pt or 12 pts per model. Armies like Skaven, Orruks and Goblins have access to better buffs and battalion rules too. Yes Range is different and combat stats are different but they cancel each other out and you're left with an opponent with twice the number of wounds for less points. That's what irks Wanderer players.

 

How do you nice peeps reading this estimate or verify a units true worth? do you have a system or a yard stick to compare them against? 

You completely ignore bravery.. now I don't know the values.. but I'd guess the elves have a higher one and it's a pretty major stat. An d of course or teleport ability.. which is major is something our units have and which is worth points. 

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, Nubgan said:

That way they wouldn't need heroes for buffing (unless having a charecter gave the arrow affects to a single unit) and it fits with previous rules in some way.

I prefer having to use hero's for buffing than your example. I also think the way your idea is made up will never be used... to much one-off sort of shots which have to be remembered. 

 

44 minutes ago, Yeled said:

Does their ability to get in the way for a low points cost make them worth it and function well...if there role is one of blocker, space occupier, and objective holder? Or should they be something else?

When I was replying above about wyldwood rangers being a niche elite unit I first wanted to say it would be nice and maybe fluffy for EG to have like.. 2 attacks and more armor, making them elitish infantry.. then I thought.. but then they'd be much more expensive... and then I removed the line and just suggested a new infantry option. I actually think that for a shooty army it's important to have cheap roadblocks you can throw in front of the enemy. The added advantage to the EG is that they aren't JUST roadblocks.. if you can put them in cover next to an objective they are ALSO a good and CHEAP tarpit. I think EG are great: they fullfill 2 roles and they fullfill it well while still being cheap.

In the sylvaneth topic I mention I'd not use them as allies.. and I won't for that army because I think dryads are more allround troops which is valuable.. but I think our archers only need cheap units to hide behind OR EXTREMELY tough units that just will not die and will ALWAYS keep the archers save... but fluff wise that just doesn't fit with wanderers: what I describe is what you'd expect from dwarves (or stormcasts I guess). I think if you want troops like that you should just get some liberators.