GHB2017 - Dealing With Change(s) - an important read!

[Major]

Hi Everyone,

*Warning: long post*

"By changing nothing, nothing changes" - Tony Robins

I've been reading a whoooole lot of posts in the forums and many reviews in blogs, or youtube etc. Thankfully, GHB2017 has been generally welcomed with open and happy arms. I did note there are still a number of people who have not really been happy with the changes brought on by Games Workshops latest GHB. I wanted to take some time to share with you all a little bit of info that may help. Because change is good. It's not always easy, but that doesn't make it bad. Vince from Warhammer Weekly recently said, on his stream "what is good today will be bad tomorrow, and good the day after that". I agree completely. Often with GW, change can be difficult, but it is mostly always for the best. Anything great in this game has been produced after trails, tests and yes, significant change. Sometimes this has been quite hard, other times quite easy. It is my belief that in order to improve this game we will need to sometimes undergo difficult change, and that is something I am willing to accept, because the rules may change, but the hobby remains. Did all my armies survive un scathed? Heck no! But that's ok, because even though all these changes are in now with GHB2017, this isn't the end for GW or the hobby and change is just around the corner, like always So embrace the change! Work with it, challenge yourself to make it work, because without challenges would this game or hobby even be as appealing to us and loved as it is?

So why do we fear and resist change so much? Well yes, you bought a whole bunch of plastic men and that cost is an investment in your hobby. But we all knew change was a constant factor within our hobby so that is quite moot. We all fear change for a variety of reasons. more often than not this fear is associated with fear of failure (will these changes make all my plastic men and women bad and I will lose lots of games?), fear of success (will nobody want to play me now because my plastic men and women are so OP and broken?), fear of rejection (All my friends are going to table flip when my KO's kick their faces in, oh no!), fear of criticism (I built my plastic men and women around the fluff I like but with this new book, everyone will think I am just "WAAC"!), fear of the unknown (I got I bought all these plastic men and women and now I don't know if they are going to be good or bad! Does GW sell crystal balls? I god I need to know!)

Acknowledge the change - This is the most important thing you can do. Recognising and accepting the changes made is the first steps towards managing any challenges you might have.

Face your concerns - Take some time out for yourself, write down your worries or concerns. Documenting these in an objective form can help to stop dwelling on them. Then go through each one individually and identify what might happen and possible ways of dealing with it or overcoming it (eg. oh no, I cant take Empire Great cannons with my freeguild any more = but I can use allies to take some cannons and maybe my local club would allow me to still take them as it is more lax than a tournament)

Seek Support - Communicate your concerns in an effective and constructive manner to your friends or to the comunity. Seek others who may have similar issues. This is especially helpful when changes are made that you do not have control over (such as losing compendium scrolls!). This is also a great way to assist with the second part of facing your concerns!

Stop the negative and replace it with something positive - A lot of your fear of change can stem from the creation of negative thoughts or scenarios in your head about what the changes hold for the future of your hobby/army. Ask yourself questions. "In the past when I handled change really well what did I do? How did I handle it? What actions did I take that really worked for me? How did I deal with the change in my communication with others in my community? How did I manage my mental health (people may joke but sometimes the smallest things can affect a persons mental health)? Which personal attributes did I use to turn things into positive? Was I patient? Rational? etc." All these are great questions.

Try to be flexible and embrace change - "shutup Major. You have no idea what your on about". Well yes I do. Some of these changes really smashed around my Empire (I mean free peoples... I mean Freeguild!) lists that's for sure! Just try and be open and flexible with these new challenges, even if you don't like something new in the system. if you are flexible and positive, people will want to game with you and people will want to spend hobby time with you. This will generally allow you to have a much more enjoyable experience in the initial stages of these changes.
 

Be part of the change! - Adopt an attitude of anticipation and excitement. change as an opportunity. Get involved and be an influencer and driver of change. That way you will feel empowered and less fearful. See the positive in the way forward. There are plenty of ways you can do this. Some are testers, others are active in communities that have a feed back to GW. Even on a club level, teaching others, and showing a positive attitude can really make a world of difference.

See the big picture and continue to hobby! - GW aren't out to destroy your hobby. GW is full of people that share the same love of it as you! But GW is also a business, and in business, change is necessary and plays a large role in the future success of the company. Regardless, nobody is out to nerf your army to make life hard, or kill of your warscrolls to waste your time or money. GW and the greater community are out to keep the hobby fun, exciting, new, challenging and above all, accessible and enjoyable to all. Look at the changes, find out how you can use them to better your hobby.

[Tittliewinks22]

Only change that has left a sour taste in my mouth was the Kharadron Thunderers.

I refuse to accept or acknowledge the excuse of "we changed the warscroll to match what comes in the box" when stuff like Stormfeinds and even the arkanaut company don't follow suit. 

Having a complete warscroll change that invalidates a 4 month old book that people spent hundreds on to build according to the presumed play-tested rules is laughable.  Not to mention they still sell the damn unit cards on their website without this change.

As for everything else in the GHB17, it's been very welcome.  My playgroup has shifted focus to more narrative style games with seige and triumph+treatchery and I have to say, T+T is amazing. If you get the opportunity to try it, I highly recommend it.

[Major]

12 minutes ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

Only change that has left a sour taste in my mouth was the Kharadron Thunderers.

I refuse to accept or acknowledge the excuse of "we changed the warscroll to match what comes in the box" when stuff like Stormfeinds and even the arkanaut company don't follow suit. 

Having a complete warscroll change that invalidates a 4 month old book that people spent hundreds on to build according to the presumed play-tested rules is laughable.  Not to mention they still sell the damn unit cards on their website without this change.

As for everything else in the GHB17, it's been very welcome.  My playgroup has shifted focus to more narrative style games with seige and triumph+treatchery and I have to say, T+T is amazing. If you get the opportunity to try it, I highly recommend it.

maybe some of the above steps could help with that Thunderers problem your having? I think it was an ok change, sucks they did it afterwards but I would imagine if they had known before hand they would have done it prior. At the end of the day I can see why that would be frustrating but surely you can see it wasn't meant to tick you off bud?

I agree T+T is AWESOME!

[RuneBrush]

I think with each revision GW does, they improve and hone the whole AoS game.  I don't think they twigged that people were going to kit the special weapon option for Thunderers all with the same option "they've got one of each weapon in the box" and I imagine playtesting was done with models kitted out with one of each.  The updated warscroll is because they're unlikely to release a new Kharadron Battletome in the next few years - Skaven may well see a one and it wouldn't surprise me to see the load out on Stormvermin change.  It's very much a shot across the warning bow that if you're converting outside the box options then don't assume it will always be valid.

My own Bloodbound army went up 260 points, which has forced me to rethink and paint up some models I've had loitering on a shelf.  I'm also considering adding some more bits in.  The new handbook has allowed me to revisit an army I thought was almost finished.  I think my only gripe would be when Errata/FAQs change the wording on warscrolls which have a hardcopy version.  I don't have an issue with the change, but it would be great to be able to get my incorrect warscroll swapped out for a new one - I'm happy to pay 50p for a new one even!

[Major]

13 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I think with each revision GW does, they improve and hone the whole AoS game.  I don't think they twigged that people were going to kit the special weapon option for Thunderers all with the same option "they've got one of each weapon in the box" and I imagine playtesting was done with models kitted out with one of each.  The updated warscroll is because they're unlikely to release a new Kharadron Battletome in the next few years - Skaven may well see a one and it wouldn't surprise me to see the load out on Stormvermin change.  It's very much a shot across the warning bow that if you're converting outside the box options then don't assume it will always be valid.

My own Bloodbound army went up 260 points, which has forced me to rethink and paint up some models I've had loitering on a shelf.  I'm also considering adding some more bits in.  The new handbook has allowed me to revisit an army I thought was almost finished.  I think my only gripe would be when Errata/FAQs change the wording on warscrolls which have a hardcopy version.  I don't have an issue with the change, but it would be great to be able to get my incorrect warscroll swapped out for a new one - I'm happy to pay 50p for a new one even!

Yes well said. It's easy to get upset at something that doesn't suit you immediately, but as a whole, its all to help improve the game for everyone and again, "whats good today, will be bad tomorrow, and good again the day after that". Good ol change! lol.

[SuperHappyTime]

Personally, I'm more annoyed with "Sunshine Pumpers" than I am with the Negative Nancys. I've seen more threads and heard more podcast/youtube rants about people complaining than I have actual complainers. Maybe Ben is doing a good job of deleting complaint threads down, I dunno. 

Contrary to popular belief, it's beneficial to everyone that someone complains and voices concern, when it's needed. If no one voiced concern about a lack of balancing structure (aka Points, because "Don't be a ******" doesn't usually work for pickup games), we may not have points today (or at least in the timely manner in which we received them). And while some of the community was writhing in pain about the "death" of WFB 8th Ed, most went over to The 9th Age, some stuck around to play the game as it was, and some even answered those cries and made their own points systems.

The fix on something like the Thunderers is "Dear GW, Please do some more play-testing ahead of time. At a minimum, please remember this situation for future rules you write. We don't mind the changes, we just hope you make these changes sooner rather than later. That way nobody buys $400 of product they can't use how they'd like and won't be furious." Another option is to tell Jerks, "Don't be a ******", doesn't work because as far as everyone knows, they can do these things.

[RuneBrush]

I think we're at risk of going off at a tangent here

At the end of the day Age of Sigmar is actually very similar to a lot of modern sports.  You've a governing body, a set of rules & regulations etc and then various teams/individuals who plough their own money into playing.  Each year the governing body reviews things that worked, things that didn't and makes changes and alterations in an effort to improve and change the game.  The big difference is that most sports have an "end of season" which is pretty static, but each season players and spectators eagerly await because there's always a chance that it'll shake things up and the players at the top might suddenly find their previously winning formula no longer works.  It adds some real excitement into the sport!

I believe this is what GW are trying to do and for many of us, it's a massive shock.  As a company that but a few years ago had basically banned any form of social media and interaction with it's customers, they're really starting to push the community side of the hobby forward and value comments we send in!  I don't think they purposely went out to punish people who had kitted out a whole unit of KO Thunderers with mortars purchased off bits companies, but equally they saw something that wasn't working as they intended and changed it to work as envisioned.  If you think about Formula 1 cars, each year various engine parameters get tweaked, so a particular item that provided a few miles an hour one season may become invalid the next.  The F1 teams know that each year they have to invest in new cars if they wish to compete for podium places, sometimes they can get away with just upgrading a couple of bits, other years they'll need to basically replace the entire car.

One of the things we as a community (and I'd actually apply this beyond our little hobby) need to get better at is communicating complaints and concerns.  We do need to voice them - it's really, really important else nobody knows there are issues, however there's a huge difference between saying "that last change you made was awful" and "that last change has meant X, Y and Z is now the case" - and never voice a complaint or concern whilst you're angry, it normally just makes you look bad - and even worse if it's littered with spelling errors and grammatical errors.

@Major has done a really good job of going over a number of points on looking at changes that effect you.  Go through them and if, at the end you still thing GW has made something unplayable, then wing them an e-mail or message on Facebook.  Just make sure it's constructive and you outline how it affects you - not your friend Bill or somebody else (who will be perfectly capable of sending their own e-mail).

[Arkiham]

Tl:Dr....

 

Jk

 

Good post dude, might have to share it if that's fine 

[Mikester1487]

Liked the post, and am currently applying some of the things you talk about.  As a KO player I was a little disappointed in the thunderers, but it was recommended to me by another player to check out dwarves I didn't even consider.

 Fyreslayers were Just not asthetically pleasing to me, but I must say they look better in your hand then on the box.  I've also thought around more damage options by taking sky wardens instead of riggers for different situations in the battlefield.

 Hopefully changing it up a bit keeps it fresh and allows me to not get burnt out on the faction that has my full attention.

[Screwface]

I'll decide for myself whether your post is an important read. Other than that, turning negativity to positivity indiscriminately can be as destructive as gratuitous negativity. As long as balance and perspective are employed they both have their place and I have no problem with either side of the coin.

[Major]

5 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think we're at risk of going off at a tangent here

At the end of the day Age of Sigmar is actually very similar to a lot of modern sports.  You've a governing body, a set of rules & regulations etc and then various teams/individuals who plough their own money into playing.  Each year the governing body reviews things that worked, things that didn't and makes changes and alterations in an effort to improve and change the game.  The big difference is that most sports have an "end of season" which is pretty static, but each season players and spectators eagerly await because there's always a chance that it'll shake things up and the players at the top might suddenly find their previously winning formula no longer works.  It adds some real excitement into the sport!

I believe this is what GW are trying to do and for many of us, it's a massive shock.  As a company that but a few years ago had basically banned any form of social media and interaction with it's customers, they're really starting to push the community side of the hobby forward and value comments we send in!  I don't think they purposely went out to punish people who had kitted out a whole unit of KO Thunderers with mortars purchased off bits companies, but equally they saw something that wasn't working as they intended and changed it to work as envisioned.  If you think about Formula 1 cars, each year various engine parameters get tweaked, so a particular item that provided a few miles an hour one season may become invalid the next.  The F1 teams know that each year they have to invest in new cars if they wish to compete for podium places, sometimes they can get away with just upgrading a couple of bits, other years they'll need to basically replace the entire car.

One of the things we as a community (and I'd actually apply this beyond our little hobby) need to get better at is communicating complaints and concerns.  We do need to voice them - it's really, really important else nobody knows there are issues, however there's a huge difference between saying "that last change you made was awful" and "that last change has meant X, Y and Z is now the case" - and never voice a complaint or concern whilst you're angry, it normally just makes you look bad - and even worse if it's littered with spelling errors and grammatical errors.

@Major has done a really good job of going over a number of points on looking at changes that effect you.  Go through them and if, at the end you still thing GW has made something unplayable, then wing them an e-mail or message on Facebook.  Just make sure it's constructive and you outline how it affects you - not your friend Bill or somebody else (who will be perfectly capable of sending their own e-mail).

Thanks for the kind words  RuneBrush. I'm glad people understand my post for what it is

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Tl:Dr....

 

Jk

 

Good post dude, might have to share it if that's fine 

Arkiham, yes that's fine. I'll do a few of these in the coming days, share away, it's for our community after all!

2 hours ago, Mikester1487 said:

Liked the post, and am currently applying some of the things you talk about.  As a KO player I was a little disappointed in the thunderers, but it was recommended to me by another player to check out dwarves I didn't even consider.

 Fyreslayers were Just not asthetically pleasing to me, but I must say they look better in your hand then on the box.  I've also thought around more damage options by taking sky wardens instead of riggers for different situations in the battlefield.

 Hopefully changing it up a bit keeps it fresh and allows me to not get burnt out on the faction that has my full attention.

Mikester1487 that's great! I did hear KO took a bit of a bump and so early on too! But I am sure it was with the best of intentions and, lets face it, they are still prety awesome and and AMAZING army to look at on a table!

Your attitude towards everything is refreshing and I share the same thought as you, hopefully changing it up always keeps it fresh! lol.

[Major]

9 hours ago, Auticus said:

A big part of getting angry at the new rules is simply GW has a decades honored practice of invalidating your army to bring forth new armies that are the hotness.   So in many cases its not just a case of being angry because change... its that someone went out and spent a whole lot of money on an army and then its rules change and make it noncompetitive.  

Very few people want to go play a game where they start the game out the gate at a massive disadvantage.  Very few people also do not want to have to keep dumping in massive amounts of money to be able to play the game fairly.  You end up like me with nine full armies and only one of them is remotely competitive today.

Hi Auticus,

I get what you are saying, and it's not that what your saying is wrong, just that, looking at the same image from a different angle might give you a clearer picture.

We need to remember, GW is a business, if it can't make a profit it cant survive and then we will be left on whatever edition it is they close on unless the community takes it all up which would be very very difficult indeed. They aren't invalidating armies, they are running a business. I can't remember how many times I have read that Warhammer is not a cheap hobby, and I cannot count the amount of warnings I got each time I bought a new army. When you start an army, any wise person knows that what level it has now, will not always be and to expect it to never change is a ball drop on the side of the army owner, not GW. Our hobby is one that cannot remain stagnant, it is one that requires constant change, adaptation and tweaking. I am not saying you are wrong, your feelings are your feelings and it's great that you identify how something has affected you and you are most certainly not alone, but if you owned a business, and you needed to make it work to survive in a industry that is becoming more and more crowded, would you sacrifice your company for the sake of some plastic men or would you hope that people understand the need for change and approach it in a positive manner, working with it to make the best they can from it?

Money isn't always the answer to fixing an army that appears "non-competitive". I built a Nurgle army because they looked cool, then I went and competed with it and got my ass handed to me several times. Then I found a video released by MC1Gamer with Tom from Warhammer Weekly about Nurgle, little did I know, with the addition of some chaos marauders (which lets face it, most of us have laying around anyway) and $10 worth of rats, my whole army changed and it was hilarious to see such a wacky (but still thematic) army doing so well!

My advice would be this: AoS will always change, so don't spend money expecting your purchase value to never change. Before AoS, were 8 other editions It may be high now, but it will be low tomorrow, and high again the day after that. That's the nature of the beast. I hope maybe some of my points mentioned in my post might help with that though. It really is a matter of perception, change the way you look at it and I think it will change the way you feel

Thanks a lot for your reply mate, its always good to know what others in the community think and feel!

[Malfunct Bot]

All this talk of change makes me think you play Tzeentch.

[Major]

3 minutes ago, Malfunct Bot said:

All this talk of change makes me think you play Tzeentch.

hahahahah! Nah mate, I play Stormcast Eternals, Mortal Nurgle and Empire. I've also (last week) started a Death rattle army so my first 2k of points for that arrives this week. Has the GHB2017 been kind to Death Rattle? Likely not, but that's ok! They still look cool and are fun as heck to play! lol One day maybe Tzeentch will call, but so far, I haven't been impressed enough to wanna paint em lol.

[Major]

8 minutes ago, Auticus said:

GHB 2017 made death rattle skeletons one of the most point efficient troops in the game when run in hordes.

Indeed, but in order to ally with Nagash I will need to play in a 4500 point a side match hahaha. So there's that. Just skeletons would be boring and gosh would it take forever to move around! Im hoping that one day they get more friends with Death Rattle keyword to play with!

[Kramer]

37 minutes ago, Auticus said:

I just watched a guy I've known for years try to come back into AOS last weekend and he brought in a goblin spider army expecting that the matched points were somewhat balanced.  His opponent took beastclaw raiders, and he was introduced really quick to just how much things haven't changed that he's probably going to stick with Kings of War.  No one was a bad guy here or "that guy" either... its just that the expectation was one thing, and the reality was something totally different.

Welcome back  

but this is very much anecdotal evidence. The other side of the same coin I have three friends that came back to the hobby last year and one more that is about to start his own army because skryre got abilities this 'season'.

The issue in your example, it seems to me, is in the first and last sentence. He had a wrong expectation... matched play (aka points) do not equal balance.  And if one bad encounter means you skip the game that's fine but that's a communication and expectation problem. And personally I feel playing one game isn't giving it a fair chance. Maybe just invite him back for two or three 'getting in the mood' games between the two of you might work wonders. ?

[Major]

19 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Welcome back  

but this is very much anecdotal evidence. The other side of the same coin I have three friends that came back to the hobby last year and one more that is about to start his own army because skryre got abilities this 'season'.

The issue in your example, it seems to me, is in the first and last sentence. He had a wrong expectation... matched play (aka points) do not equal balance.  And if one bad encounter means you skip the game that's fine but that's a communication and expectation problem. And personally I feel playing one game isn't giving it a fair chance. Maybe just invite him back for two or three 'getting in the mood' games between the two of you might work wonders. ?

yes. yes. a million times yes.

[Major]

Im really glad this sparked so much discussion, its great to see. I am really interested to see/hear any thoughts from the rest of the community here seeming as it is so large.

[MrCharisma]

On 9/5/2017 at 0:05 PM, Major said:

"By changing nothing, nothing changes" - Tony Robins

 

I only came here for Tony Robbins... (that's me BTW)

[Centuryslayer]

I love new editions. Breath of fresh air and all that. And yes I was bummed that death rattle didn't get any love (and deathless minions got nerfed), but I'll still play them. And with Grave guard as battleline it frees me up to take some allies, which is great. And maybe we'll get more skeletons soon, who knows?

The allies system alone is amazing for this edition, letting us keep alliegances while spicing up our armies a bit more. 

I also picked up Seraphon. In part because I saw a video on their back story. And the final drop was Lords of space and time. I just how they play now and their fluff. 

My Bonesplitterz got pretty shafted for me, as I don't play them competetively with loads of archers, most of my units went up in points and I was struggling to even get an even game with them before that. But it might just not be an army for me, it feels like it doesn't really click. But I want to because I love them

[Nubgan]

I think the only thing that annoys me about the constant change, is that they still sell printed items that lack the changes. They should either be shelved or printed FAQ's bundled in with the books. Heck, with how easy it is to redistribute digital products they should update these too, not let people download non up-to-date content.

The actual changes and 'balancing' all seems very reasonable to me (minus the thunderer gripe). Like you say, just embrace the change, because they certainly won't change it again for at least the year

[Oppenheimer]

11 hours ago, Major said:

Im really glad this sparked so much discussion, its great to see. I am really interested to see/hear any thoughts from the rest of the community here seeming as it is so large.

I don't want to be too negative because I know Ben doesn't allow that here but you asked for more feedback so here it is.

I was new to AoS in 8e and wasn't around for all of the changes I'm supposed to expect, except for AoS. AoS as massive a change as it was didn't make any models invalid so I didn't realise that was something GW did. I'm an environmentalist at heart and so the idea that I have bought and painted permanent plastic miniatures only to have them become fit for the trash after a number of years is not OK with me. 

I wish I had put 2 and 2 together before spending 10s of thousands on multiple GW armies. 

So my only choice is to play friendly games with the old scrolls so that all my models still have a place in the game and make my own estimations about how points for compendium should be lowered to match the rest of the new points for existing models so that it all remains balanced. I created a series of revised Bret scrolls and points to keep them competitive for example. 

Other than that I am looking to start gaming with other companies where the turnover is less expected. I will be decreasing the amount of time spent on AoS somewhat and the amount of money I spend dramatically and focus elsewhere (Malifaux, Frostgrave and Kings of War are where I'm looking now).

It's sad because I love GWs miniatures and the streamlined but still fluffy rules of AoS but cannot abide the wastefulness of planned obsolescence.

[Screwface]

6 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

By changing nothing, nothing changes.

That quote is the biggest deepity. 

[Naishy]

As mentioned earler in this thread, GW is a company that makes money by exploiting it IP.  The way the game develops is very similar to that of a collectable card game like Magic the Gathering, development cycles are constant, there will always be the new "thing" on the horizen.  In Magic new sets come out creating a new meta, usurping the old meta and providing new opportunities for old decks.

The beauty of this game is that you can use models you have had in your attic for 20 years and find rules to support them.  What you cannot do is walk into a match play event and expect to go toe-to-toe with some of the newest armies on the scene.

[Cerlin]

I am very new to the hobby, but I find change to be the fun part of it.  If they were not changing anything I would hazard a guess that even more people would be upset.

I do not think that I have any right to old models I bought to work forever. I may have to find another game to use them in and that is life.

People seem upset that points dont equate to a ln always 50 percent chance to win, but it could never work that way. Some armies are hard counters to the one you brought. Even if each army had exactly the same rules, but different composition, this would still happen. That is even before we consider the skill in playing the game itself. If you are bad at placement and movement tactics, and I am better, and we both roll average, Ill probably win. Point systems cannot account for that. 

Perhaps people need to use 100 to 300 point ranges for handicaps? Or for compendium lists?