Destruction's Poor Showing at Blackout

[Soup Dragon]

So the results are in for the first big tournament under GHB2017. Blackout was a fantastic event and @Chris Tomlin must be congratulated on how well he ran it. 80 players and a real 'buzz' to the event. To use the current 'a la mode' phrase, I had 5 great games (6 actually, had a fab game with @Nico on the Friday night).  A new rejuvinated enthusiasm was evident in all the games I saw. A few elite armies seem to have shot straight to the top - Tzeench, Murderhost and SCE but this is not what I want to talk about.

There were 80 entrants and only 9 of those (11%) were Destruction (there were 12 Death players). There will be many reasons for this, and certainly some of the Destruction players you would normally expect at a big event weren't there (Chris Tomlin obviously, @Paul Haley , @Nathan), but surely that wouldn't account for the dearth of destruction at Blackout. So my first query is - have Destruction players been switching to 'better' Grand Alliances? Or was it just that the normal Destruction players couldn't make it?

Next, there was only ONE destruction army in the top 25 places (Nicky Myland's Bonesplitterz). Even my 15 year old son got into the top 20 with FEC for god's sake!!!! There were some excellent Destruction players there - @Sangfroid, Will Morris, and @Donal, but we were just not cutting it against the top tier armies. So query number two is do we think there are top tier lists in Destruction and we just need to look harder, or are we to be relegated to mid-table mediocrity? 

Now don't get me wrong. I am NOT moaning about GHB2017. I think it is a fantastic book and it has sorted out many of the deficiencies in the original, and I love most of the stuff it has added in. I just want to find out where Destruction is likely to be with regard to other armies. I currently have no problem if it turns out we are mid table - I get too stressed when I'm on top tables anyway, so it helps my BP and prolongs my life!

So over to you guys. Any suggestions?

[RoyalDachshund]

Well Destruction is this year Death

With increased costs, Stonehorn nerf, Battle Brew and Movement Traits nerf it's hard.

Lost two stonehorns in one turn to a bunch of skeletons the other day - Damage spam of 1 is a killer

*slowly puting his BCR on the bottom shelf*

[Soup Dragon]

Lol yeah, I got 2 Stonehorns hit by 30 Bloodletters and they took BOTH of them off in one round of combat with mortal wounds alone!! I didn't even get to make the armour saves, and was no where near getting a chance to hit back 

Mind you - I think I played the mortal wounds wrong - on reflection I think I should have halved them as per old rules?

[Malakree]

The few games I've played with my Ironjawz we feel really slow, quite expensive and super vulnerable to character snipes. The last one might mean I need a mawcrusher but the mobility, issue is quite a problem. I feel like it should be automatic for each character (to be able to push a unit) or on a 4+ for all.

Will have to play it out more, think there are somethings I can do differently in my own games but it's not encouraging to watch better players being smashed.

[RoyalDachshund]

"Slow" is the key-word for GH2017 Destruction, at least for now - maybe someone will come up with some nice idea on how utilize Destruction without going Kunnin' Ruk over and over. It takes turn or two more to get into a fight with Ironjawz (BCR is still fast but damm those 460 units are dying like crazy in spam meta) and that usually means that only couple of boys remain to pick a fight. Rest is sniped to death

[Aginor]

Oh man that's bad. I had hoped for good balance because at least from afar it looked as though Ironjawz for example got better in some stuff.

BCR... well I honestly think that they got nerfed a bit too much. Before the change Stonehorns were OP, but now it looks like they might be too bad...

Feels like half of that tournament's players were Tzeentch!?

[Sangfroid]

From my perspective had a great time and last game I was on table 6 v Byron and had I won it then because of sports and kill points I'd have ended up in 6th place which would have made things look a lot different.  Against Byron was an incredibly close game and it was the star spear scenario so you score more points in the after turns. 

2 things contributed to my loss the first was turn 4 priority roll (which I lost,) had I won my capturing all 3 points would have made it very unlikely for Byron to catch me even with the potential 15 points for turn 5 (not impossible but difficult) 

The second is the new wording of destruction move, 2 times in the game (T2 and T3) I got the 6 an the 4+ and would have loved to move my brutes 6" (then Ironfist and then run/charge) which could have won me the game but as I was in 12" of his Dragonlord and Phoenix I could only charge (which I did against Dragonlord and 5 brutes with frenzy only did 1 wound as I failed to roll successful wound rolls with Klaw, smasha and gore hacka! He then ate all 5 brutes. Which is just bad luck really- it happens, later the Dragonlord killed 20 Ardboyz had I took his remaining 11 wounds off or even severely mauled him this wouldn't have happened etc....). It was frustrating that finally rolling the 6 I couldn't do anything with it which is an issue with Mighty destroyers/raging destroyers I think. 

Therefore a different day I think this was a game ironjawz could have one so no issues there. 

My 3rd game table 1 I lost to Kroak, I made 3 mistakes,

1) I didn't put all my destructive bulk into the Saurus when I got a played for but lucky 11" charge T1 (I elected to kill the skinks knowing they would cause me issues later on the objectives as they flee from combat and not fight)

2) when I had the skinks pinned T3 I chose to finish off the bastilidon I should have killed them, they retreated and scored 2 points off me 

3) I retreated my Ardboyz to protect my 4pt objective and didn't account for tom piling into the gaps I left between models for coherencey (it was literally millimeteres but it was fair score 100%) 

imcouldnt deal with kroak, I either take allies or accept I have to play well to beat this list and those 3 mistakes show I played well 25-21 end score, but not well enough so my fault not Ironjawz. 

Overall I don't think Destruction is in a poor place, quite the opposite for Ironjawz at least I think they have gotten a boost, just need to play better and tweak the lists, very exciting times :-) 

[Ollie Grimwood]

Possibly a case of people not getting used the the new rules/battleplans? There were quite a lot of major changes to Destruction especially the "powerbuilds".  Might take a little longer for us to get up to speed?   Time to break out the Gordrakks?

No whinning like Death players though we're better than that ?

[Malakree]

So the take away here is that IJ are quite punishing of mistakes and the major limitation of the new destruction trait is that you MUST charge if it's available.

[Sangfroid]

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the take away here is that IJ are quite punishing of mistakes and the major limitation of the new destruction trait is that you MUST charge if it's available.

you don't have to charge I just chose to do so the first time as I felt that if I couldn't move around to kill his judicators I may as well have a go at the Dragonlord I did expect to do more than 1 wound tbh!! :-) 

Ive found ironjawz to always be punishing on you if you make a mistake because they have to work hard to compete but the new changes have made the Mawkrusha really worth the 460 points (ironclad is amazing) I'm starting to think step one of an Ironjawz list is Mawkrusha 

[valenswift]

Any way of seeing some lists? In particular the SCE

[Soup Dragon]

3 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Overall I don't think Destruction is in a poor place, quite the opposite for Ironjawz at least I think they have gotten a boost, just need to play better and tweak the lists, very exciting times :-) 

I concur - we are in very exciting times. I was so excited on Saturday morning that I was literally dancing in the hotel and dancing as I handed my army list in on Saturday morning.

Yes Kieran, you are probably right to a large degree. I do not think that the armies we have been running  work as well as before, but with a combination of list tweaks, better play and adapting to the new 'meta' (what a horrible, but useful word) we will get more of us up into the top third at events. However, I do not see us beating Tzeench, KO, and some other lists on a regular basis - please prove me wrong!

I had high hopes of Nicky Mylands Bonesplitterz list (4 x 30 arrowboys + Kunnin Rukk + 2 heroes) it was sweeping all before it at the weekend, and had he ever played Fyreslayers before, could have won all 5 games. However, I beat it in a practice game last week (with a Seraphon Ripper list) and Ellis Priestley beat it with KO today, so it's got it's weaknesses.  we were talking tonight about what changes he should make to it.

Grots have tons of potential - all 3 flavours. They sit naturally in a horde era and have 'out of sequence' abilities e.g. Fanatics, that can be very powerful. So I have hope there is something coming from those little green buggers.

I know that I need to start 'thinking out of the box' and getting ideas 'out of left field' to try to come up a with novel solutions to the current problems we face. This forum is hopefully a good place to bat around a few ideas.

2 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

No whinning like Death players though we're better than that ?

You are absolutely right! No whinging! Destruction is da best, and don't you forget it!

[Tizianolol]

@Sangfroid ironclad + mystic shield is really good.  when I posted my list I hadn't considerateted ironclad ( I took brutish cunning) and I have tryed to build a list without weirdnob shaman but with megaboss with destroyer.

with ironclad all change! Bye bye megaboss sadly:( but I need the shield:)

[Donal]

I dont think BCR are bottom tier, but they are definitely much more unforgiving compared to how they used to play. 

I finished 33. Though having won my first 3 games, I was on table 2 at the start of day 2.  (I also played & beat the players coming 3rd & 6th, and lost to the 5th & 11th). All in all,  some good opponents and tough match ups.

Game 4: I had a really tough match up (Scorched Earth vs skyborne slayers) and counted myself out of the game before I started. In reterospect I could have deployed better (and had a better rub of the green) I could have won (or at least put on a better show).

Game 5: Final game was against Seraphon (first game playing them) so i had the completely wrong strategy. I definitely would have struggled in this game, but I played it wrong (FYI: throwing a frostlord into a bastillidon from the thunderscorn battalion doesnt cause any wounds in combat over 3 turns...)

 

[Soup Dragon]

I've written a brief(ish) tournament report in the thread: 

 Writing it made me reflect on the 6 games I had over the weekend, and like @Donal , in hindsight I could have deployed better, and played differently and been in with a shout of winning the games I ended up losing. Against the Skyfires it was a long shot, but against the 2nd Syvaneth list I had a real chance. Also actually managing to successfully make even a few re-rollable 6"-8" charges would be invaluable!

I'm looking forward to Facehammer and hopefully playing better and doing better with a tweaked list

[Nico]

This feels so reminiscent as a Death player (what happened last year). That said, Donal seemed to be around the top tables most of the event and you Paul looked to be doing a submarine at one stage. There were a lot of Tzeentch which are strong vs Destruction.

I think inventive use of Allies will be key - I'm considering Fanatics and Rock Lobbas personally.

[ChippyRick]

10 hours ago, Donal said:

I dont think BCR are bottom tier, but they are definitely much more unforgiving compared to how they used to play. 

I finished 33. Though having won my first 3 games, I was on table 2 at the start of day 2.  (I also played & beat the players coming 3rd & 6th, and lost to the 5th & 11th). All in all,  some good opponents and tough match ups.

Game 4: I had a really tough match up (Scorched Earth vs skyborne slayers) and counted myself out of the game before I started. In reterospect I could have deployed better (and had a better rub of the green) I could have won (or at least put on a better show).

Game 5: Final game was against Seraphon (first game playing them) so i had the completely wrong strategy. I definitely would have struggled in this game, but I played it wrong (FYI: throwing a frostlord into a bastillidon from the thunderscorn battalion doesnt cause any wounds in combat over 3 turns...)

 

As it was vs me Game 4 i can agree with Donal on his breakdown of the game. It was always going to be a tough one for him but the early turns things just went a little in my favour. This just opened up the margins more and made everything harder again. It would be interesting to play that game out again as it could be different for sure.

On Destruction as a whole, I really think there are good times ahead. As nico above and others have said, I think destruction more than anyone benefit from the allies and in many lists i think this will be key.

Bonesplitterz still have it. not just Rukk, think there is some interesting builds that can work on speed and board coverage. Pure high damage output is less here but numbers are good and more dice means more kills some times.

BCR changes imo were unnecesary and a real shame. Yes they were decision made to knock back that mixed list we all know of from the last year, but the changes have made a weak BCR book weaker again which is a massive shame. I love and have played BCR monsters since the start and had hoped the new GHB ws going to bost them. There is still options luckily for these though I think, but for the most part atm i see it as allies needed.

Ironjawz.... These guys def still have potential. The army itself has certainly got better, and we have a wealth of players in this section that push them and share the tactics / skills. The traits etc and formations are all good and still worthwhile options. The addition of allies again really opens these up, and not just for added numbers, but magic support, ranged threats and monsters.

I dont really look to much at the grots, but they are clearly ok with recent event results and also getting boosts with GHB 2017.

Ogors are interesting as well, people dont seem to play these much in the UK from what I have seen. But I think they still cut it. 4 wound model units, high damage output and reletively quick. The heroes are nuts and with allies again you can look at large units and mosnter support. Think these could be one to watch!

All in all I agree with above comments that things are still positive. just time for change and finding the ways forward.

[Chris Tomlin]

Hey guys,

Unfortunately I don't have the time this week to write lengthy posts, but this is certainly an interesting discussion - I was honestly surprised at how few Destruction players there were this past weekend (amplified by the surge in Death players).

I think @Sangfroid makes a great point regarding Rampaging/Mighty Destroyers and tbh, it's only going to get worse as more and more people realise they can easily neuter it by positioning a unit within 12".

Ironjawz do seem to be in a good place on paper, that said I have lost the games I have played with them so far. Looking forward to getting in some more games and especially seeing how I do at Facehammer.

@Soup Dragon - How the Stonehorn works with Mortal Wounds now is definitely up for debate. I have sought clarification on that in my direct feedback to GW as it came up in one of @Donal's games. Thanks for the kind words re the event as well.

@valenswift - The top 10 lists (featuring 2 SCE lists) are discussed on the podcast I released yesterday and all 82 will go up in a PDF at some point in the near future.

@ChippyRick - Interesting comments re Ogors. I'd be keen to discuss this more with you actually...I have that army I recently bought back just sat around now!!

Sorry I cannot contribute more at this time,

Chris

[ChippyRick]

15 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

From my perspective had a great time and last game I was on table 6 v Byron and had I won it then because of sports and kill points I'd have ended up in 6th place which would have made things look a lot different.  Against Byron was an incredibly close game and it was the star spear scenario so you score more points in the after turns. 

2 things contributed to my loss the first was turn 4 priority roll (which I lost,) had I won my capturing all 3 points would have made it very unlikely for Byron to catch me even with the potential 15 points for turn 5 (not impossible but difficult) 

The second is the new wording of destruction move, 2 times in the game (T2 and T3) I got the 6 an the 4+ and would have loved to move my brutes 6" (then Ironfist and then run/charge) which could have won me the game but as I was in 12" of his Dragonlord and Phoenix I could only charge (which I did against Dragonlord and 5 brutes with frenzy only did 1 wound as I failed to roll successful wound rolls with Klaw, smasha and gore hacka! He then ate all 5 brutes. Which is just bad luck really- it happens, later the Dragonlord killed 20 Ardboyz had I took his remaining 11 wounds off or even severely mauled him this wouldn't have happened etc....). It was frustrating that finally rolling the 6 I couldn't do anything with it which is an issue with Mighty destroyers/raging destroyers I think. 

Therefore a different day I think this was a game ironjawz could have one so no issues there. 

My 3rd game table 1 I lost to Kroak, I made 3 mistakes,

1) I didn't put all my destructive bulk into the Saurus when I got a played for but lucky 11" charge T1 (I elected to kill the skinks knowing they would cause me issues later on the objectives as they flee from combat and not fight)

2) when I had the skinks pinned T3 I chose to finish off the bastilidon I should have killed them, they retreated and scored 2 points off me 

3) I retreated my Ardboyz to protect my 4pt objective and didn't account for tom piling into the gaps I left between models for coherencey (it was literally millimeteres but it was fair score 100%) 

imcouldnt deal with kroak, I either take allies or accept I have to play well to beat this list and those 3 mistakes show I played well 25-21 end score, but not well enough so my fault not Ironjawz. 

Overall I don't think Destruction is in a poor place, quite the opposite for Ironjawz at least I think they have gotten a boost, just need to play better and tweak the lists, very exciting times :-) 

Interesting read mate. Hope to see a more indepth breakdown of the Ghostwulfz weekend on here.

Its interesting looking at what seem like small mistakes and minor under average rolls and how much impact they have. With the small model count armies it really hurts if they are dieing of just not getting to do what you need from them. 

Definitely agree the Mawcrusha is a tough unit to ignore now. think it starts what is an avalanche of destruction (no pun intended) with how the Ironjawz work now hitting an area and all units smashing face.

[Chris Tomlin]

2 minutes ago, ChippyRick said:

Definitely agree the Mawcrusha is a tough unit to ignore now. think it starts what is an avalanche of destruction (no pun intended) with how the Ironjawz work now hitting an area and all units smashing face.

This is 100% true. Being able to commit to multiple combats in a single turn is a huge bonus on the face of it.

[Sangfroid]

I'm working away form home tomorrow and Thursday so will have plenty of time in the evening in the hotel to write some of them up @ChippyRick it's one of my favourite things to do because it makes you think about the game itself and often you spot mistake you have made or opportunities lost :-) 

Ogors in particular Gutbusters is a thing I am very fond of up to FHGT last year all my lists had Ogors in them, in fact at 120pts they were point for point the most efficient and best Destruction battleline (as in no fixed alleigence)up to the introduction of Savage Orruks with 2 wounds at 100pts. Now you can effectively get a 12 model horde of them for 400pts really pushes them back up the scale again. Ironguts now are "Battleline if" so you could go down a Gutstar route nicely now or even an old @Sedge style MSU list and flood the field. 

146 wounds of ogor battleline that can be made to be immune to battleshock all game for 1200 pts is nice (though I'd probably have 1 huge unit and lots of little ones instead.) 

not being allowed to take gutbusters as allies (and visa versa) was my only real sadness of the changes to GHB2017

[bomba776]

Anyone happen to know what the Slaanesh player's lists look like ?

[ChippyRick]

28 minutes ago, bomba776 said:

Anyone happen to know what the Slaanesh player's lists look like ?

Lists will be up some point for the Top 10 at least. 

[ChippyRick]

2 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

I'm working away form home tomorrow and Thursday so will have plenty of time in the evening in the hotel to write some of them up @ChippyRick it's one of my favourite things to do because it makes you think about the game itself and often you spot mistake you have made or opportunities lost :-) 

Ogors in particular Gutbusters is a thing I am very fond of up to FHGT last year all my lists had Ogors in them, in fact at 120pts they were point for point the most efficient and best Destruction battleline (as in no fixed alleigence)up to the introduction of Savage Orruks with 2 wounds at 100pts. Now you can effectively get a 12 model horde of them for 400pts really pushes them back up the scale again. Ironguts now are "Battleline if" so you could go down a Gutstar route nicely now or even an old @Sedge style MSU list and flood the field. 

146 wounds of ogor battleline that can be made to be immune to battleshock all game for 1200 pts is nice (though I'd probably have 1 huge unit and lots of little ones instead.) 

not being allowed to take gutbusters as allies (and visa versa) was my only real sadness of the changes to GHB2017

Look forward to some updates for this then.

Yes I agree, big units of the Ogors will be good now. TBH not a bad allies unit :). Having the Ironguts as battle if makes gutbusters solid I think, few smaller units and a big unit of them. Decent core to an army.

[Donal]

5 hours ago, bomba776 said:

Anyone happen to know what the Slaanesh player's lists look like ?

I played (and beat) @Binx Slannesh list.  Off the top of my head, it was: keeper of secrets, herald, 2 units of 30 demonettes, 5 seekers, 10(?) fiends, 2 units of 5 hellstrider, 3 hellflayers, hero on a chariot

It was a really fun game, the hellstriders are horrendous with the -1 hit and I only beat him because of a few mistakes he made tactically and some good dice rolling when it mattered. (also some bad dice rolling - i couldnt kill the final hellstrider in a round of combat with my frostlord). If we replayed I think he would easily win the scenario.

Great game, and I can see slaanesh going very well. For a full write up check out his blog: https://binxshobbyblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/blackout-2017/