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Lets Chat: Darkling Covens


GammaMage

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19 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

1st list is a winner.

Is that so?
What opponent might counter that lists? Skyfires and Stormcast Teleport-Judicaters might instagib the Sorceress. Clan Skyre is also known for brutal Lists.

My goal is to work out basic strategies with the Darkling Covens. From inital Setup to solutions against tough opponents. Why? Because I see some potential in that lists to maybe take them to tournament.

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On 9/15/2017 at 0:59 PM, Kaleun said:

Is that so?
What opponent might counter that lists? Skyfires and Stormcast Teleport-Judicaters might instagib the Sorceress. Clan Skyre is also known for brutal Lists.

My goal is to work out basic strategies with the Darkling Covens. From inital Setup to solutions against tough opponents. Why? Because I see some potential in that lists to maybe take them to tournament.

IMO, my Chaos Dwarf army would blow Darkling Covens away in the current meta.  Long-range hero-sniping, mortal wound artillery, anti-horde and anti-monster abilities, strong shooting defense and wizards/unbinding.  To be quite honest, Chaos Dwarfs are well-rounded like Darkling Covens are, but are a bit slower.  I don't see them winning.

Strong shooting counters much of anything that relies on heroes, which is why I think a single-drop to try and take 1st turn and get that Sorc on a balewind would help.  If you are able to play to the objectives, keep your hero close to the horde (anti-battleshock), and target the right units, I think they can do very well.

Example is playing against crazy Khorne-rush style army which can get off 1st turn charges and slay any units that it touches.  In that case, going first may not be the best idea, unless you see how they deploy - if they go Murderhost and move 2d6" after deployment, before you pick who goes first... then you can try to make a rush on them with Darkshards en-masse and your dragon with the above strategy, or if their heroes are in range, use Decanter and Run+Shoot command ability for those LONG range shots into the heroes to take them out.  

Against Skyfires... hmm I'd try to go first if possible, and debuff with word of pain, try to rush the Shaman to reduce their +hit bonus even further, and try to keep your Blackguard blob out of range.

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13 hours ago, DeadlySarcasm said:

I'm not convinced Darkling Covens do too well against any of the top meta lists at the moment. I think realistically you are looking at a mid table finish in most events, possibly higher if you get lucky with who you are drawn against.

The handbook has been out for less than a month.  There's no telling what will perform best, considering the variability of Allies.

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10 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

The handbook has been out for less than a month.  There's no telling what will perform best, considering the variability of Allies.

Absolutely correct, but unfortunately as the core of the army is made up of single wound elves with not that great saves, the top tier armies are just flat out better.

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11 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

The handbook has been out for less than a month.  There's no telling what will perform best, considering the variability of Allies.

From that point of view the whole discussion is pointless unless it's based on experiences with GHB 2.0. Not trying to be a D but just saying ;) 

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1 hour ago, Kramer said:

From that point of view the whole discussion is pointless unless it's based on experiences with GHB 2.0. Not trying to be a D but just saying ;) 

So you don't see the difference between theorycrafting synergies for lists, and saying  to expect a "mid-table finish"?  Winning at tournaments/matches has so many variables, and depends on your area too.

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21 hours ago, GammaMage said:

Here's a cool new thing we can try. Probably not very reliable, but it could infuse a bit of fear in the enemy...

image.jpeg.9ec7bdebe19471970d0d4f73aaa3cc55.jpeg

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/19/the-armies-of-firestorm-anvilgard-sep19gw-homepage-post-4/

The Allegiance screams for the "Hammer and Anvil" tactic. Here I would definetly recommend two black dragons. They could fly over the enemy troops and really punish the enemy for getting to close to our lines.

 

The basic problem of the Darkling Covens I see is that they are mainly made of footslogging single Wound models. We can increase the speed a bit with artefacts and the Warlords traits but still we are a lot slower then other armies. I wouldnt say that staying power is super necessary in tournaments, Dark elves simply have never been that way, but alpha strike capabilities are. If the darkling covens cant bring their damage potential on key targets we might find ourselves on the loosing side. Especially with all that Alpha strike/hard-hitting armies out there.

On the other hand Darkling Covens are pretty good at zoning. (if you can save the Covens-Master-Sorceress)

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12 minutes ago, GammaMage said:

I like the idea of trying to blunt the alpha strike by putting Drakespawn Knights in front of our damage dealers, but I'm not sure how well they do against lots of rend.

what?! Please dont waste the precious Knights. You put the Bleakwords/Dreadspears into the enemy Attackline. The Knights are meant for a countercharge.

You always want to charge with your Knights and not get charged!

(Btw. the Knights lack rend by themselves. So use them against enemy units with a low save)

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10 hours ago, Kaleun said:

The Allegiance screams for the "Hammer and Anvil" tactic. Here I would definetly recommend two black dragons. They could fly over the enemy troops and really punish the enemy for getting to close to our lines.

 

The basic problem of the Darkling Covens I see is that they are mainly made of footslogging single Wound models. We can increase the speed a bit with artefacts and the Warlords traits but still we are a lot slower then other armies. I wouldnt say that staying power is super necessary in tournaments, Dark elves simply have never been that way, but alpha strike capabilities are. If the darkling covens cant bring their damage potential on key targets we might find ourselves on the loosing side. Especially with all that Alpha strike/hard-hitting armies out there.

On the other hand Darkling Covens are pretty good at zoning. (if you can save the Covens-Master-Sorceress)

Maybe not running the battalion and going pure horde ?

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Incorporeal Retainer 
Sorceress (80)
Sorceress (80)
40 x Bleakswords (360)
30 x Bleakswords (300)
40 x Darkshards (400)
30 x Executioners (480)

Total: 2000/2000

Seems like a waste to not grab the battalion, but going straightforward, keeping the Dragon in the middle to prevent battleshock could work.  Rerollable saves of 1s and 2s isn't that bad, tbh.

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On ‎21‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 1:16 AM, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Maybe not running the battalion and going pure horde ?

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Incorporeal Retainer 
Sorceress (80)
Sorceress (80)
40 x Bleakswords (360)
30 x Bleakswords (300)
40 x Darkshards (400)
30 x Executioners (480)

Total: 2000/2000

Seems like a waste to not grab the battalion, but going straightforward, keeping the Dragon in the middle to prevent battleshock could work.  Rerollable saves of 1s and 2s isn't that bad, tbh.

Is the army above meant for the Anvil Guard Allegiance? I dont see Problems solved here. You are just trading the killy Black Guard for bodies.

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So I seem to have gone in a different direction to most with my list - maybe because I have built it from scratch for AoS rather than trying to build from an old Fantasy collection but here it is anyway. Happy to get some feedback :)

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)

Battleline
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline

Units
1 x Bloodwrack Shrine (140)
- Allies

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 140 / 400
 

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18 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

So I seem to have gone in a different direction to most with my list - maybe because I have built it from scratch for AoS rather than trying to build from an old Fantasy collection but here it is anyway. Happy to get some feedback :)

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)

Battleline
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline

Units
1 x Bloodwrack Shrine (140)
- Allies

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 140 / 400
 

I really like that list.
I would drop one Sorceress for the balewind vortex as discussed above. You are heavy on the mortal wound side of things. If you have all that Executioners elite armies will think twice to stand in the way of that badasses and the Shrine.

The bloodwrack shrine might not be a huge damage dealer though. Definitly worth a try in action.

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@Twitch of Izalith

just found a disadvantage in your army list... You have that many units, that chances are very high your oponent will decide who is going first. Obviously he might leave you the first turn, bacause you have literally nothing in your army list with any turn 1 strike capabilities.

I have put a Balewind Vortex in your army list:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Witch Rod
- Trait: Impossibly Swift
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany

Battleline
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
20 x Executioners (360)
- Darkling Covens Battleline

Units
1 x Bloodwrack Shrine (140)
- Allies

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 140 / 400

At least you can debuff an enemy unit now in turn one with the Sorceress.

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@Kaleun Thanks, I hadn't really paid attention to the balewind vortex! 

The list is designed with accepting that I probably never get to choose priority in the first turn and setting up in reaction to an enemy with lower drops.

The decanter of Egos is in there to increase the threat range of the darkshards to 25" (6" move + 3" for the decanter + 16" range on the repeater xbows) - that gets you into shooting range of anything your opponent has at the front of his deployment. Its an easy counter to deploy a couple of inches back but puts them on the defensive if they do that.

The Bloodwrack Shrine is a counter for hordes since its attack affects all models in the unit. I've had mixed success with it but when it works its great.

Keeping the black dragon alive is quite hard - it seems best just to throw it in to combat and hope it does some damage before it dies. It tends to attract a lot of attention and distracts people from the executioners who are the real threat.

The list struggles a bit with Duality of Death because of the low number of scoring models. Its strong on Knife to the Heart as you can keep a tight formation and just go for the major victory right away. you tend to get turn one shooting more easily too.

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Use the Balewind Vortex in conjunction with the Anklet of Epiphany. 

It gives your Word of Pain a whopping 42" range on the balewind Vortex (Scenery). Just realised I put one extra Artefact into the army list. Just scratch the Anklet for the Decanter. It is very much needed in a Darkling Coven army.

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So tried out the following list yesterday against Tzeench with lots of Chaos Warriors and a band of Varanguard allies:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress (80)
- General
- Trait: Master of the Sorcerous Arts
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany
Knight-Azyros (80)
- Allies
Cauldron Of Blood (200)
- Deathsword
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Bleakswords (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Black Guard (160)
10 x Executioners (180)

Units
1 x Bloodwrack Medusae (120)
- Allies

Battalions
Thrall Warhost (180)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1480 / 1500
Allies: 400 / 400

 

Mostly wanted to try out the new allegiance and also wanted to try out the medusae, and see if the cauldron was a good ally or not. My medusae got sniped to death by skyfires, so didn't get to use it. The cauldron hardly did any wounds, but did absorb a lot of damage so at least it was marginally useful. I'm thinking Khaine allies is not the way to go, though. As I expected, I also really suffered the lack of some faster cavalry like Drakespawn Knights or Dark Riders. Aside from that, my army, for the first time, feels like it isn't lacking anything. Have actual command abilities, useful artifacts, can deal a decent amount of wounds with shooting, and have the possiblity of a first strike attack with the Decanter + Command Underlings. I lost but I think it was mostly  due to me making mistakes with my new command abilities and the fact that I didn't position myself well enough (my Executioners went after the Skyfires, when they probably should have gone for the Varanguard).

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@GammaMage I would never use a cauldron on its own. Its really designed as a force multiplier for witch elf units and to a lesser extend the rest of the DoK army. So you could take a couldron and a unit of 20 witch elves and it would give you an effective unit but it would use up all your allies points.

The medusa survives a little better on her shrine - and if she dies then you have the consolation that it took a lot more of your enemies' resources to kill her!! If there is plenty of terrain the one on foot is better for the extra speed.

If you know who you are fighting you can make much better decisions about her. Its worth taking more than one against armies with multiple 30/40+ units. 

If you are taking Stormcast allies - the description for the Lord Relictors' lightning chariot says "friendly unit" not "stormcast unit" so for 80 points you get teleporting executioners... or you could chariot your medusae into range of hordes turn 1.

if I was trying to make a strong tournament list I would take 3 of them and 60 executioners. maybe 90 executioners if I really wanted to win :)

Knight venator is also a good pick for some much needed long range sniping/lethality. 

I need to check out the others in detail once the book arrives.

I have not taken them in games so far but I'm getting hold of some stormcast for our Firestorm campaign as I will be running Anvilguard. It always feels a bit cheesy taking the characters on their own as allies. 

I would absolutely drop the battalion scroll for another unit of executioners but again I guess it depends how competitive you want to be.

Great to hear about the darkling covens getting some more table time!

 

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Isn't Lightning Chariot an extra prayer that you get from having Stormcast Allegiance? Can't take it if they are allies. I haven't actually built my Cauldron properly yet, so I can try the Bloodwrack Shrine when I face the Death zombie hordes, which is probably gonna happen in two weeks time. My game next wed is against Ironjaws, 1350 points. Will probably just replace the Cauldron and Medusae with 5 Drakespawn knight for that game, which puts me on 1320.

The batallion is situational, but it does give me the second relic, which I like. I'm not completely sold on mass Executioners. I've found they're only good against high-save units. I'd rather play another 10 Black Guard that can get in more attacks with their 2" range.

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58 minutes ago, GammaMage said:

Isn't Lightning Chariot an extra prayer that you get from having Stormcast Allegiance?

Yeah it may be actually. I only just mail ordered the stormcast book yesterday so was reading the description of the prayer out of context.

I have been running lots of executioners and found them to be good against everything!

I would never have less than 2 x 10 in a DC army because you have so little that can take out treelords etc

I would love to play some Black Guard just for the models and for the variety but executioners are just better. in 10's anyway. I guess there might be situations where the reach helps but on 25mm bases you only need a 1" reach to fight in 2 ranks. Here is the math hammer for 10 executioners compared to 10 Black Guard. You are right they are more comparable against lower saves but the mortal wound output still has the edge and is more versatile for me.

  Av. To hit Av.to wnd Sv2+ Sv3+ Sv4+ Sv5+ Sv6+ Sv -
10 Exec 13.3 6.7 1.1 2.2 3.3 4.4 5.6 6.7
10 BG 15.6 10.4 3.5 5.2 6.9 8.6 10.4 10.4
add mrtls     Sv2+ SV3+ SV4+ Sv5+ Sv6+ Sv -
6.7per 20 atk     7.8 8.9 10.0 11.1 12.2 13.3
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@Kaleun

Kinda. I have played 2 games running them in 2 units of 30. I dropped the shrine and added the balewind which you can actually be really sneaky with so thanks for the heads up on using it!!

Game 1 against kharadron overlords. I deployed 30 as far forward as possible with a sorceress behind them with decanter of egos. She uses the decanter on them and some darkshards and then casts balewind vortex. The balewind pushes them 3" forward. Then I used the run and charge command ability. They get a 9" move from the decanter & then I rolled a 4 for the run leaving me an 8" charge to the Kharadron gunline. They destroyed 15 Arkanauts and 6 Thunderers and both Kharadron  units failed battleshock and ran away.

I had a lot of luck getting the turn one charge but it showed the potential - it was like having a dark elf murderhost :) The second unit was ready to charge in on turn 2 and the stunties were so busy dealing with all the executioners that my dark shards were getting on to objectives and scoring points. Even the dragon survived the game although most of the executioners were dead by the end. It was an easy enough win after the mass destruction caused in the first 2 turns.

Game 2 against Ironjaws. This one didn't go nearly as well. He was running lots of brutes and goregruntas and that battion that lets all the pigs move 15" in the hero phase! I got really tied up fighting Goregruntas and once I got my shards in range they were just bouncing off everything they shot at. There was an epic battle between 10 brutes and one of my executioner units but I only had 8 left by the time the brutes were dead! They got charged and wiped out by a second unit of Brutes before they could even fight back. I lost that game if you couldn't guess :) 

I'm going to split the units up for the next game and run 1x30 and 3x10. The problem with the list is that they are the only really strong things in it! I haven't properly glued the arms on 20 of them so I can maybe swap them for Black Guard. The rend and extra reach might give me some more options. 

The covens list could be really good with a bunker unit and some more movement buffs. I think the army I would least like to fight is Fyreslayers - they have all those saves against my mortal wound output :( 

 

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Am also strggling to find a bunker/tarpit unit. The closest I can get is Drakespawn Knights with mystic shield, but someone said that I shouldn't be using them for that. :/

What kind of deployment setup do you guys use? A lot of the matched play battleplans need you to split up your forces to take multiple points, but our battle trait wants us to clump up our Darkshards and Bleakswords. And the Bleakswords are not very good at screening our 'elites' (BG & Executioners) long enough for them to get in a charge and wreck things. Should I just put the elites in front and play bigger units of them, so even if they get charged enough will survive to attack back?

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