Let's Chat: Seraphon 2017

[OracleOfScales]

Man... this army is blowing my mind.

As a newer player it's so much to take on - it seems the very successful armies making use of multiple summoning and teleport tricks. As a player who is yet to play a game can someone give me a short version of things I should be making use of each in list? I feel a little bewildered right now trying to take it all on. 

[GingerGiant]

On 10/25/2017 at 10:24 AM, Ar-Pharazôn said:

There's only about four players currently. Aside from me, we have Flesh-Eater Courts, Slaves to Darkness, and Sylvaneth. There's also a Stormcast army lying around that's mostly from the Starter box.  Due to my Slann, I have no real competition with magic, but my battleline gets burned through quickly. Tips?

I think there are two primary factors.

#1: You're running a Slann. That's more than 25% of your total point budget on a single model in a 1000 point army. He's very good, but other armies will pick up one or two heroes ~100 point heroes within that budget.

#2: You don't really have very much in the way of Battleline, and the Battleline you do have is fragile. Stardrake Shields have a fantastic ability, but on Saurus Warriors and Saurus Knights, it's not nearly so useful. -1 Rend across several attacks is sufficient to label a unit as "Anti-Armor", and the Stardrake Shield is the Anti-Anti-Armor shield, but it doesn't do a whole lot for a unit with that only has a 5+ save, whereas fully buffed Saurus Guard benefit greatly. Sure, you're saving twice as many Saurus Warriors as, say, any other infantry with a 5+ save against Rend -1, but when you look at the damage dealt to Saurus Warriors from your opponent's perspective, 4 in 6 wounds go through, instead of 5 in 6. That's still a lot of dead Saurus.

You should really look to increase the number of Saurus Warriors you have. Their damage output is phenomenal when run in a 40-model unit, and that's without external buffs. It's the sort of unit you can throw in and have it act as the backbone of nearly any Seraphon list, without requiring dedicated support units. Granted, it's a bitey-killey sort of backbone, and they're a very aggressive unit. Keep them out of fights that they don't initiate, so that you can swing with them first. And, make sure you pick your fights carefully for them. You want to deal as much damage as possible, so speedbump units like 10 skeletons should be avoided (and preferably dealt with by your Saurus Knigjts).

I like the Firelance Starhost. While the extra mortal wounds are nice, it's really the +3 to charges that matters. You want the Knights to charge in, tie things up for a turn, and GTFO when your Saurus Warriors catch up.

[GingerGiant]

17 minutes ago, OracleOfScales said:

Man... this army is blowing my mind.

As a newer player it's so much to take on - it seems the very successful armies making use of multiple summoning and teleport tricks. As a player who is yet to play a game can someone give me a short version of things I should be making use of each in list? I feel a little bewildered right now trying to take it all on. 

I think everyone should always run a 40-model block of Saurus Warriors, because it's a powerful unit that requires little support in terms of buffs. It does, however, need tactical support to ensure it makes favorable engagements (i.e., it charges, so that every model can get engaged with their 1" weapons). Saurus Knights are the go-to, but Skinks work to!

If you don't run a Slann, consider just running Vanilla Order. The Slann receives 50% of the Seraphon Allegiance benefits. That said, run a Slann! They're really good, and the battlefield-wide dispel ensures you can protect your fragile units from nasty spells like Arcane Bolts. If you have a Slann and a Firelance Starhost, you can roll with Dracothion's Tail and auto-summon your units.

I think Slann are the only auto-include for Seraphon Allegiance.

[OracleOfScales]

My first game is on the 25h November - We're playing 1940 points as that's what I'll own once it's all built. I'll have 

Slann Starmaster
Skink Starseer
Skink Starpriest
Old Blood on Carnosaur
Scar-Vet on Carnosaur

20 Saurus
15 Saurus Cold one Knights
40 Skinks 

Bastiladon

That's all I have so I am just using that. I don't think I can make any Batallions out of it to make it a bit better but I am not fussed as it's about learning the rules.  

 

 

[Freddy25]

41 minutes ago, OracleOfScales said:

My first game is on the 25h November - We're playing 1940 points as that's what I'll own once it's all built. I'll have 

Slann Starmaster
Skink Starseer
Skink Starpriest
Old Blood on Carnosaur
Scar-Vet on Carnosaur

20 Saurus
15 Saurus Cold one Knights
40 Skinks 

Bastiladon

That's all I have so I am just using that. I don't think I can make any Batallions out of it to make it a bit better but I am not fussed as it's about learning the rules.  

 

 

You could split your knights into 3 units in order to have a Firelance Starhost (3x Knights + 1 Carno scar vet)... But this would make you exceed 2000 pts, so if you want it you should drop something else.

Choose what you prefer, and let us know!

[OracleOfScales]

This is true. So I worked this out - 

Slann Starmaster (General) - 260
Oldblood on Carnosaur - 280
Scar-Vet on Carnosaur  - 240 
Skink Starpriest - 80

Saurus Knights  x 5 - 100
Saurus Knights x 5 - 100
Saurus Knights x 5 - 100
Skinks x 40 - 200
Saurus x 20 - 100

Bastiladon - 280

Firelance Starhost - 110

 

This is 1950 on the head! This seems like a good thing to try out. I've just got to work out what Command Trait I'd like my Slann to have and put some the relics somewhere, any reccomendations on what relics should go where?

I'm arming Saurus with Spears as it seems better for the extra attacks, I'll arm the Knights with Spears as I think there speed with a starhost and potential masters of space and time and constellations should allow me to charge and my skinks will have blowspitters and clubs.

[Tizianolol]

First of all 100 pts Are 10 saurus not 20

i can suggest that

- remove saurus and 40 skinks = - 300 pts

- add 2x 10 skinks = + 120 

- add 1 razodont = +40

u got 190 pts  points to spend ( 140+50)

use that points to summon a unit of 4 razodonts

tot 1970 

u can use skinks to tale objective +1 razo   And summon 4 razo with slann  where you need. I think 4 razo perform better then 40 skinks with this hords meta:)

 

[OracleOfScales]

Sorry, I meant to write 200.

As I said in the above post - this is all I own as I'm a new player and it'll be my first game  

[OracleOfScales]

Alright guys, I've settled on a list with artifacts etc. (Mainly because this is all I own really, bar a extra Skink Starseer)

Allegiance Trait : Seraphon
Battle Trait : Seraphon

Slann - General - 260
Command Trait - Arcane Might 
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - 280
Artefact - Coronial Shield 
Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur - 240
Artefact - 240
Skink Starpriest - 80 

3 x 5 Saurus Knights - Celestite Lances - 300 
40 Skinks - Boltspitter & Moonstone Club - 400
20 Saurus - Celestite Spear - 200

Bastiladon - 280

Firelance Starhost - 110 

Playing against a friends Death army on Wednesday I'll let you all know how it goes.

[spenson]

It's a cool list, similar to the one I'll try soon. Your list is only 1950 points if I'm not mistaken, so you can add a razordon/salamander if you have one or a gryph hound.

In my list the 20 warrios are replaced with dracothion tail and an astrolith. You get an extra artifact (e.g -1 rend on the scar vet) and your list is 1 drop only with the ability to charge turn 1. The knights only need 6, or 5 if you're lucky with your slann.

The astrolith can easily be converted from a saurus standard bearer if you don't have it yet.

edit : you made a slight mistake; 40 skinks are only 200 points.

[GingerGiant]

On 11/10/2017 at 5:51 AM, OracleOfScales said:

40 Skinks - Boltspitter & Moonstone Club - 400

40 skinks only cost 200 points. Is that reflected correctly in your point total?

[OracleOfScales]

On 10/11/2017 at 1:05 PM, spenson said:

It's a cool list, similar to the one I'll try soon. Your list is only 1950 points if I'm not mistaken, so you can add a razordon/salamander if you have one or a gryph hound.

In my list the 20 warrios are replaced with dracothion tail and an astrolith. You get an extra artifact (e.g -1 rend on the scar vet) and your list is 1 drop only with the ability to charge turn 1. The knights only need 6, or 5 if you're lucky with your slann.

The astrolith can easily be converted from a saurus standard bearer if you don't have it yet.

edit : you made a slight mistake; 40 skinks are only 200 points.

Thanks man! I wrote it wrong but I've only paid 200

The only other model I own is a Skink Starseer, hense me being 50 points down right now. I plan to order some Razordons soon! 

On 11/11/2017 at 8:22 PM, GingerGiant said:

40 skinks only cost 200 points. Is that reflected correctly in your point total?

 

Yeah I did pay the correct points I just wrote it down wrong

[OracleOfScales]

Worth noting I didn't write the scar vet has the blade of realities (as I have a batalltion) my bad 

[OracleOfScales]

So I played my first game last night used the list I posted above, I won 10-5 on starstrike! I had SO much funn, very excited for the next! 

P.S - 2 Mournghuls are nastyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[Freddy25]

Good job, Oracle! 

How did your units perform? Are you planning to change something of your army list in the future?

[spenson]

So I'll be playing a "friendly tournament" during the last 2 weeks of december and I decided to use my seraphon. I wanted to play a list with 2 carnosaurs and a bastiladon until I realized that I can only take up to 2 behemoths... The goal was to use the Ancient Warlord ability on the carnosaurs to kill basically everything.

So right now my list is:

Allegiance: Seraphon

Leaders
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (280)
- General
- Trait: Thickly Scaled Hide 
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices 
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)
- Greatblade
Skink Starpriest (80)

Battleline
5 x Saurus Knights (100)
- Lances
- Seraphon Battleline
5 x Saurus Knights (100)
- Lances
- Seraphon Battleline
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 980 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
 

I want to keep the 2 carnoaurs, but I'm not very satisfied with the battlelines. I think the firelance starhost would be too expensive for a 1000 points game. I also considered playing x3 ripperdactyls + more skinks (no shadowtrike).

[J.J]

So I had my first proper game with Seraphon yesterday at 1250 - both me and my opponent were re-learning and getting used to the rules, but I'm fairly certain we got most things right (despite us both forgetting some handy buffs/rules that would have helped us). The mission we played was Starstrike.

My list was:

• Slann (General - Great Rememberer)
• Oldblood on Carno (Coronal Shield)
• Oldblood on foot
• 3 x 5 Knights
• 10 Saurus Warriors
• Troglodon

His list was:

• Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (General)
• Coven Throne (Artifact I can't remember)
• 5 Blood Knights
• 3 Vargheists
• 3 Spirit Hosts

Turn 1, he won the roll-off and gave me first turn. I tentatively moved forwards into range for my two 18" ranged attacks which amounted to nothing. On his turn he used his crazy movement to get right up in my face and charged the Vampire Lord into my Carno, the blood knights into a unit of my knights and the Troglodon and finally the Coven Throne into another unit of knights on the flank. I took heavy damage and barely did anything back in return, the Coven Throne ate my knights on the flank. 

Turn 2, the objective landed right in the middle of the table. I won the roll-off and decided to go first. I wheeled some knights around the left flank and charged his Vampire Lord, along with my Saurus Warriors and Oldblood on foot, managing to take him down with relative ease. Everything else in the middle suffered, the Troglodon and Knights were easily removed by the Blood Knights and Coven Throne, leaving me heavily stacked on one side and him on the other. The Vargheists also charged my Knights in the rear and took them down to 1 man, with the Spirit Hosts drifting up and taking control of the objective.

Turn 3, two more objectives landed, one in the middle of his zone and one on the stacked flank of mine. I won the roll off again and teleported my Slann to the opposite side of the table and onto the objective over there, and teleported my lone guy out of combat with the Vargheists onto my objective. Charged my Carno at the Vargheists and managed to clear them off the table, charged my Warriors and Oldblood at the Spirit Hosts on the objective, only killing one of the three. He then retreated the Spirit Hosts off the middle point, and ran to contest the point where my Slann was. The Blood Knights and Coven Throne then piled into the Saurus on the point and managed to clear them off the table, also turning the Oldblood into a Vampire Lord in the process, scoring him two objectives to my one.

Turn 4 was quick and short. I won the turn again and charged the Carno at the Coven Throne, finally finishing it off but getting killed by an Arcane Bolt from the Vampire Lord. The Slann engaged the spirit hosts but successfully did nothing! At that point I conceeded as I couldn't really win!

 

It was a fun game but I couldn't really get a handle on how to play the army. The units I'd taken in comparison to his felt extremely weak and outnumbering didn't really do me any good. I got rather unlucky (or we did something wrong) as my Slann only managed to cast one arcane bolt all game and never managed to get a mystic shield off, either through bad rolls or my opponent rolling better. The free teleportation seemed handy for objective grabbing but that's about it, it's too risky to try and use it to get a charge off, needing a 9 to get in range. All in all I'm not sure what I could have done differently, all/most of his units were faster than mine so it was quite easy for him to control who charged who. I could have perhaps spaced my Warriors out in front to use as a bit of a meat shield and absorb the charge? Any tips on anything I did obviously wrong would be great

[tolstedt]

13 minutes ago, J.J said:

 

Turn 1, he won the roll-off and gave me first turn. I tentatively moved forwards into range for my two 18" ranged attacks which amounted to nothing.

Did you move everything up within his threat range?

Also, you don't roll off for the first turn.  Whoever finishes deployment first gets to choose first turn.

[Xanax Lot]

41 minutes ago, J.J said:

So I had my first proper game with Seraphon yesterday at 1250 - both me and my opponent were re-learning and getting used to the rules, but I'm fairly certain we got most things right (despite us both forgetting some handy buffs/rules that would have helped us). The mission we played was Starstrike.

My list was:

• Slann (General - Great Rememberer)
• Oldblood on Carno (Coronal Shield)
• Oldblood on foot
• 3 x 5 Knights
• 10 Saurus Warriors
• Troglodon

His list was:

• Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (General)
• Coven Throne (Artifact I can't remember)
• 5 Blood Knights
• 3 Vargheists
• 3 Spirit Hosts

Turn 1, he won the roll-off and gave me first turn. I tentatively moved forwards into range for my two 18" ranged attacks which amounted to nothing. On his turn he used his crazy movement to get right up in my face and charged the Vampire Lord into my Carno, the blood knights into a unit of my knights and the Troglodon and finally the Coven Throne into another unit of knights on the flank. I took heavy damage and barely did anything back in return, the Coven Throne ate my knights on the flank. 

Turn 2, the objective landed right in the middle of the table. I won the roll-off and decided to go first. I wheeled some knights around the left flank and charged his Vampire Lord, along with my Saurus Warriors and Oldblood on foot, managing to take him down with relative ease. Everything else in the middle suffered, the Troglodon and Knights were easily removed by the Blood Knights and Coven Throne, leaving me heavily stacked on one side and him on the other. The Vargheists also charged my Knights in the rear and took them down to 1 man, with the Spirit Hosts drifting up and taking control of the objective.

Turn 3, two more objectives landed, one in the middle of his zone and one on the stacked flank of mine. I won the roll off again and teleported my Slann to the opposite side of the table and onto the objective over there, and teleported my lone guy out of combat with the Vargheists onto my objective. Charged my Carno at the Vargheists and managed to clear them off the table, charged my Warriors and Oldblood at the Spirit Hosts on the objective, only killing one of the three. He then retreated the Spirit Hosts off the middle point, and ran to contest the point where my Slann was. The Blood Knights and Coven Throne then piled into the Saurus on the point and managed to clear them off the table, also turning the Oldblood into a Vampire Lord in the process, scoring him two objectives to my one.

Turn 4 was quick and short. I won the turn again and charged the Carno at the Coven Throne, finally finishing it off but getting killed by an Arcane Bolt from the Vampire Lord. The Slann engaged the spirit hosts but successfully did nothing! At that point I conceeded as I couldn't really win!

 

It was a fun game but I couldn't really get a handle on how to play the army. The units I'd taken in comparison to his felt extremely weak and outnumbering didn't really do me any good. I got rather unlucky (or we did something wrong) as my Slann only managed to cast one arcane bolt all game and never managed to get a mystic shield off, either through bad rolls or my opponent rolling better. The free teleportation seemed handy for objective grabbing but that's about it, it's too risky to try and use it to get a charge off, needing a 9 to get in range. All in all I'm not sure what I could have done differently, all/most of his units were faster than mine so it was quite easy for him to control who charged who. I could have perhaps spaced my Warriors out in front to use as a bit of a meat shield and absorb the charge? Any tips on anything I did obviously wrong would be great

From looking At the lists I can understand why you felt a little overwhelmed, your opponents list was more competitive than yours. Even though you had a fun list to play, and you included good choices such as a Slann and a Carnosaur your list could be improved if what you are looking is to play more competitively.

I hope this short text would help you a little with it. Although there are some units in as that are very good by themselves (stone horn, zombie dragon, tree lords, attributors, storm fiends, etc...) AoS is a all about synergies and making your army work as a whole instead of separate units doing their own thing (there are only very few cases where this works).

Seraphon are not the exception, in fact they are actually one o the armies that need synergies to really shine. SO my suggestion to you would be to explore how those synergies work and that would help you understand what seraph can really do. Some examples are the following:

- 2 Carnosaurs, Skink Starpriest, skink priest, Astolith bearer ( each gets 7 bite attacks rerunning to hit an causing damage 6 on wound rolls of 6+, retooling charges and saves).... can be improved even further with a slann and a battlemage

- Kroak on a vortex with an astrolith bearer and some ripperdactils in shadowstike (croak mortal wounds key elements on the tabletop wile rippers take care of larger threats such as a zombie dragon)

- Eternal starhost, with skink starriest, astrolith bearer and skink priest save of 2+ resoluble ignoring rend with d3 damage on the pole arms and 2 damage on the bites when rolling a 6+ to wound, add to that a grup of razordons and the only option for your enemy is to use mortal wounds agains them or leave them be

 

this are just a few examples of the top of my mind but as you can see command abilities, battalions and hero supportt really helps your army get together and really show what it is capable of doing.

Since the generals handbook came out I have played many games against a death player and I have yet to loose or to feel that my army was on a disadvantage so I think is just a matter of getting more games in and learning what you really like to play and how to make it more effective. with a little bit of research I think you will find what you like: 

Some of the most popular competitive options for seraphon are the following:

-Ripperdactyls

-Kroak

-Bastiladon

-Skinks

-Astrolith Bearer

- Skink Starpriest

-Big blocks of Saurus warriors (40)

 

hope this helps

 

[J.J]

1 hour ago, tolstedt said:

Did you move everything up within his threat range?

Also, you don't roll off for the first turn.  Whoever finishes deployment first gets to choose first turn.

I must have without realising, the majority of his units had some real crazy movement values and fly, meaning it was hard for me to not get within his threat range. As it was first turn of my first game using Seraphon, I guess I just thought trundling forward to get in range of attacking made sense. The roll off was a mistake in typing on my part, we actually didn't do that for first turn

Thanks for the advice Xanax! Some really good combinations there I was looking at myself, but don't quite have the models for yet. Eternal Starhost really appeals as I love those Saurus Guard models - so I might head in that direction next.  The double carnosaurs sound brutal as well, I have all but the second carnosaur so might have to look into grabbing another!

[Seraphage]

15 minutes ago, J.J said:

I must have without realising, the majority of his units had some real crazy movement values and fly, meaning it was hard for me to not get within his threat range. As it was first turn of my first game using Seraphon, I guess I just thought trundling forward to get in range of attacking made sense. The roll off was a mistake in typing on my part, we actually didn't do that for first turn

Thanks for the advice Xanax! Some really good combinations there I was looking at myself, but don't quite have the models for yet. Eternal Starhost really appeals as I love those Saurus Guard models - so I might head in that direction next.  The double carnosaurs sound brutal as well, I have all but the second carnosaur so might have to look into grabbing another!

Always remember to move in such a way that in your opponents turn you 'll be even outside the 12" charge after his movement. If it is really important to go within his threat range, do so at the maximum possible distance ! 

 

[J.J]

I was thinking of attending a small 1500 point tournament in the near future. I read through all your comments and thought this could be a good start:

Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (280)

• - General
• - Command Trait : Legendary Fighter
• - Artefact : Blade of Realities

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)

• - Greatblade
• - Artefact : Coronal Shield

Skink Priest (80)

• - Priestly Trappings

Skink Starpriest (80) 

10 x Skinks (60)

• -Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

10 x Skinks (60)

• -Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

5 x Saurus Knights (100)

• -Lances

3 x Ripperdactyl Riders (140)

Bastiladon (280)

Shadowstrike Starhost (170)

 

Tried to combine the two priests and carnosaurs with the shadowstrike starhost. Is shadowstrike worth taking with only 3 Ripperdactyls? Or is it worth expanding the unit out and dropping something else?

Thanks all!

[Xanax Lot]

41 minutes ago, J.J said:

I was thinking of attending a small 1500 point tournament in the near future. I read through all your comments and thought this could be a good start:

Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (280)

• - General
• - Command Trait : Legendary Fighter
• - Artefact : Blade of Realities

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)

• - Greatblade
• - Artefact : Coronal Shield

Skink Priest (80)

• - Priestly Trappings

Skink Starpriest (80) 

10 x Skinks (60)

• -Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

10 x Skinks (60)

• -Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

5 x Saurus Knights (100)

• -Lances

3 x Ripperdactyl Riders (140)

Bastiladon (280)

Shadowstrike Starhost (170)

 

Tried to combine the two priests and carnosaurs with the shadowstrike starhost. Is shadowstrike worth taking with only 3 Ripperdactyls? Or is it worth expanding the unit out and dropping something else?

Thanks all!

Looks like a nice start, if I where you I would consider loosing the seraphon ability to include a loremaster and a battlemage, the combo of those two spells on a carnosaur with the skink star priest is devastating y have managed to do 26 wounds with a carnosaur before battleshock with that combo. So its worth looking into it

furthermore I would change the saurus knights for more skinks.

At a 1500 point game is probably a better option to run the ripped by themselves as currently int tournaments you are usually  (even if it doesn't make any sense) not allowed to place the toad if you use this formation. Dropping the battalion and changing the taurus knight gives you 210 points to spend which is enough to get the other 2 casters, however that would take you ver your hero list so you might need to choose if you want the skink priest or any of the other two.

another option would be to change the saurus knights drop the battalion and get another 3 rippers 

[J.J]

21 minutes ago, Xanax Lot said:

At a 1500 point game is probably a better option to run the ripped by themselves as currently int tournaments you are usually  (even if it doesn't make any sense) not allowed to place the toad if you use this formation.

Really? Very strange, the wording seemed pretty definitive that if you have a unit of them, you place the toad. 

[Drofnum]

The argument is that since they arent placed on the table you dont get to place the toad.  I think its ridiculous rules lawyering but we seem to be the minority.