What can we expect for the future of Tomb Kings in GHB 2

[Lavy]

So I am aware of the updated point totals that some of the Tomb Kings got a while back as a sneak peek for GHB 2, but in light of the speculation surrounding a Deathrattle release, and the general consensus that certain Tomb King's units are a bit too powerful in the right circumstances, where does the community think Tomb Kings will fit-in this time around?

[inunn]

I think tomb kings aren’t in the GHB2017; compendium points are being split out and released as a pdf on Saturday. Apart from the already teased points adjustments I don’t know if I’d expect many more changes.

[Lavy]

Well what does that mean for compendium armies?

[someone2040]

It'll mean whatever people want it to mean.

Compendium stuff will still have points, so if you want to run a matched play game of compendium vs non-compendium, you should be on the same playing field.

What it may mean is that there is now a clear separation between factions that are supported and those that aren't. Some tournaments or groups in future may not allow compendium rules to be used, as these models are no longer in production and available to everyone to purchase.

[Elmir]

Nobody knows what it'll mean. Maybe they will get faction rules via PDF as well?

Maybe GW just wants to not have "unavailable" factions in the GHB to not confuse new players who might think of starting an army that they can only get on the second hand market... As long as veterans can acces the rules for free via PDF, it should all be fine. 

 

Worst case scenario: only the points costs are adapted in the future and TK will not get new toys like battle traits other than the generic death ones.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Elmir said:

Worst case scenario: only the points costs are adapted in the future and TK will not get new toys like battle traits other than the generic death ones.

 

The worst case scenario is that major tournaments use this as a convenient excuse to disallow compendium armies. The competitive community takes its cue from the tournaments and also shuns compendium armies. The wider community takes its cue from the highly vocal competitive community and also turns away from compendium armies. Finding a game at any level with compendium armies becomes impossible, as they're now seen as 'not a real army', 'not officially supported' or 'unfair'. People stop trying to get a game with them and move on to other armies. Games Workshop perceives that there is no interest in compendium armies and stops updating their points, or even officially acknowledging their existence in any way.

Not only is this the worst case scenario, but I also confidently predict that this is the scenario that will actually play out - probably within months of the GHB2017 being released, if not weeks.

[helle]

6 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

Not only is this the worst case scenario, but I also confidently predict that this is the scenario that will actually play out - probably within months of the GHB2017 being released, if not weeks.

I absolutely agree with you that the compendium armies will dissapear and vanish after some time when not supported by GW properly. I doubt it will be as soon as you predict! Even if GW will not properly update them after next Saturday, the community will continue to keep them alive for at least another couple of years. I don't think it will be any longer than 2-3 years though.. Poor Mummies, one of the most flavorful armies out there going back to the dust it came from!

[Elmir]

I'm pretty sure that mummies (as a new faction) will make a return. It's too good an undead arch-type to ignore. 

It was just a shame that they had the old skeletons still. That's the real reason they were discontinued in production (despite the warsphynx being one of the best models in the range imo. 

[choocheelo]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/25/new-and-updated-faqs-forge-world-warscrolls-and-compendium-pdfsgw-homepage-post-1/

poor Settra... =( 

[Kugane]

18 minutes ago, choocheelo said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/25/new-and-updated-faqs-forge-world-warscrolls-and-compendium-pdfsgw-homepage-post-1/

poor Settra... =( 

I'm not sure if it is a bad thing. A Tomb King on Exalted Chariot does pretty much the same thing Settra did (unless I am mistaken). He is not a named character anymore, so now you can slap an artifact onto him as well. I don't know if ring of immortality is still a thing, but if it is, that could be a great thing for Settra?

[TheOtherJosh]

It looks like Warsphinx lost the bonerattle keyword.

And all of the Compendium Battalions have gone away.

[Nasnad]

Aaww all tomb kings lost the deathrattle keyword. Can't say that i am surprised. Properly a good thing

[meelow]

Also they lost their summoning and healing spells...


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[Kugane]

2 minutes ago, Nasnad said:

Aaww all tomb kings lost the deathrattle keyword. Can't say that i am surprised. Properly a good thing

Its a bit annoying because now I'll need to magnetize all my skeleton warrior shields haha!  I think all in all Tomb Kings is still quite a decent stand-alone army, but I'm afraid they won't be legal for tournament play anymore. I wish I had known they'd split off from other deathrattle units before sinking a considerable ammount of cash into buying Tomb Kings stuff the past few months.

[swarmofseals]

23 hours ago, Kugane said:

Its a bit annoying because now I'll need to magnetize all my skeleton warrior shields haha!  I think all in all Tomb Kings is still quite a decent stand-alone army, but I'm afraid they won't be legal for tournament play anymore. I wish I had known they'd split off from other deathrattle units before sinking a considerable ammount of cash into buying Tomb Kings stuff the past few months.

I know for a fact that some major tournaments are still allowing compendium armies, and I also suspect that more tournaments will be open to including them now as there is a much weaker argument that they are OP. I think they will remain quite competitive!

[Kugane]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I know for a fact that some major tournaments are still allowing compendium armies, and I also suspect that more tournaments will be open to including them now as there is a much weaker argument that they are OP. I think they will remain quite competitive!

I am kind of considering wether I should continue building a tomb kings army now though. I started out collecting them to add and improve my Deathrattle army, to kind of bridge gaps that I feel are missing in Deathrattle, but with the new rules my entire army pretty much got split in half. I have to admit I very much like the models for stuff such as Morghasts and never had an excuse to include them, since Necropolis Knights simply out-classed them, so perhaps now I can finally pick them up!  It'll be very difficult to include Settra anywhere now though, so that might become a display cabinet unit.

[swarmofseals]

38 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I am kind of considering wether I should continue building a tomb kings army now though. I started out collecting them to add and improve my Deathrattle army, to kind of bridge gaps that I feel are missing in Deathrattle, but with the new rules my entire army pretty much got split in half. I have to admit I very much like the models for stuff such as Morghasts and never had an excuse to include them, since Necropolis Knights simply out-classed them, so perhaps now I can finally pick them up!  It'll be very difficult to include Settra anywhere now though, so that might become a display cabinet unit.

It's a tough position given how likely a new Deathrattle book is in the medium term future. Personally, if I were in your spot I'd probably do exactly what you suggested - magnetize the shields and work towards building two armies: a GA death army and a full on TK army. Settra, some Necropolis Knights and a big block of skeletons is already a big chunk of points. Maybe grab some Ushabti which will be good in both settings?

[themortalgod]

Overall, I think TKs faired better than I expected, we already knew the Settra, Knights, and Sphynx nerfs were coming but I feel like making Settra and Khalida generic heroes makes them a bit more as well since they can now take items, command traits, and command abilities. 

460pts for Settra/TK on Exalted Chariot I feel is just way too much now. Compare to say a bloodthirster at 260pts he just feels way over priced. Ya hes a strong force multiplier but I really struggle to feel if it is worthwhile at 25% of my army.

Khalida/Tomb Queen is better now but so vulnerable unless you spend half your hero slots on heralds to chase her around.

Catapult feels like its leaning towards overpriced now but not too bad. I wish it had gotten the Desert Legion keyword

Ushabti are still really good, especially against enemy infantry. Sucks the models are so rough. I love their look but when you start painting them you realize just how sloppy the sculpts were. 

Was really surprised Carrion didn't get changed to disallow objective taking while still high in the sky

Tomb Kings still have really decent base stats in combat.

Sad that Tomb Guard still suck.

Tomb Herald nerf didn't seem necessary to me.

Removal of the healing spells feels like a kick to the nuts without any compensation

Was hoping for adjustment to the casket to make it not suck. Sadness.

Real bummer that TK didn't get the max unit bonus

 

I don't expect to see TKs winning many tournaments but they are certainly still completely playable at a casual level. I will still be playing mine, but I won't be hunting for sphynxes and knights for a good price anymore.  

 

[Kyriakin]

8 hours ago, themortalgod said:

I don't expect to see TKs winning many tournaments but they are certainly still completely playable at a casual level. I will still be playing mine, but I won't be hunting for sphynxes and knights for a good price anymore.  

I'm not sure why they don't do a Made to order on the entire TK range.

When Diazettes reached the point of costing $40 for a single seeker and $20 for a single daemonette on eBay, they pulled the trigger.

Despite this nerf, yesterday I saw a box of snake surfers on eBay for nearly $200. Sure, it was still factory sealed, but Jesus.

I won't pretend to know the logistics of a Made to Order run, but it seems there is money to be made on TK, if they want it.

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

I'm not sure why they don't do a Made to order on the entire TK range.

When Diazettes reached the point of costing $40 for a single seeker and $20 for a single daemonette on eBay, they pulled the trigger.

Despite this nerf, yesterday I saw a box of snake surfers on eBay for nearly $200. Sure, it was still factory sealed, but Jesus.

I won't pretend to know the logistics of a Made to Order run, but it seems there is money to be made on TK, if they want it.

2

I agree but I think its because a huge percent of the range is made up of pretty rough sculpts. Art style is gorgeous but if you look closely at models like the Ushabti, Khalida, etc, they are very sloppy with messy details. I think GW recognizes they would effectively have to redo most of the line to re-release TKs which is why they have been given such a backseat. I think GW is considering bringing them to AoS but hasn't decided one way or the other yet, though they know that 90% of the range would need to be redone.

Also its important to remember that at the end of End Times Nagash made Khalida the fourth Mortarch and she was with Neferata at the moment the world ended, which suggests to me that "if" GW was to bring TKs forward that it is entirely reasonable that Khalida would be the lead to the faction (likely on some sort of newly minted monstrous mount)  as it would be weird if Neferata survived but Khalida didn't.

[The Golem]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

as it would be weird if Neferata survived but Khalida didn't.

Actually Neferata didn't survive to the End Times and neither did the other mortarchs. Nagash resurrected/recreated them after he became the god of Shyish.

[themortalgod]

On 8/28/2017 at 0:53 AM, The Golem said:

Actually Neferata didn't survive to the End Times and neither did the other mortarchs. Nagash resurrected/recreated them after he became the god of Shyish.

Which is "how" they survived.  It still stands to reason that he would resurrect all of the monarchs. Would be weird if he only went with 3 of 4. There is text in existing AoS fluff that speaks to the existence of a TKs like force. The only question is if GW wants to invest in bringing them back as an army that has a supported mini range. I think it is very likely as it offers a distinctly different flavour of Death in a faction that is sorely anorexic right now.  

[Elmir]

Aren't there 12 mortarchs? I don't think they would ever get to that many models...

 

*edit* nope, it was 9 apparently.

[Dave Fraser]

On 27/08/2017 at 9:15 PM, themortalgod said:

Catapult feels like its leaning towards overpriced now but not too bad. I wish it had gotten the Desert Legion keyword

Tomb Herald nerf didn't seem necessary to me.

 

Agree catapults feel a fraction overpriced for a max 4 damage model but the necrotect obviously changes that up a bit.

what was the herald nerf?

 

changes not mentioned (or I missed in the thread:)

necrosphinx charge distance lowered (3d6 pick 2 highest)

Scorpions now tunnel up 9" away

catapult now has to cause damage to reduce bravery.

 

the changes to the exalted chariot king is mental, so compared to settra before he now has an ability & item.  But that means he can be my wizard saving me 120pts with master of the black arts and can have -1 to hit or 3+ to return once dead.

Overall I think the TK army still has a very competitive build but more importantly it has a load of fun units for a great varied army. 

[themortalgod]

Even with the necrotect catapults still feel a bit weak at 160 pts. Assuming you have a necrotect you are paying 260pts for 2 shots that are 4+/3+,  That means in a 5 turn game, if it shoots twice per turn you are going to deal a whopping ~3.3 wounds on average that confers all of 13 damage total if its unsaved. Sure the Bravery debuff is ok but just doesn't feel worth a 260pt investment to me.  Also important to notice the catapult now has to cause wounds to do the Bravery debuff which it didn't have to do before.  I think if they wanted to keep it compelling at 160pts they could have changed screaming skulls to last until your next shooting phase. Not only would that make the catapult more attractive but it would instantly make the casket of souls a more compelling choice as well. (which it currently is not)

Previously the herald transferred wounds automatically, now it only does it on a 2+. Not a huge change but just felt a bit unwarranted. 

Also I didn't notice the scorpion nerf... that sucks, that makes them kinda bad now... the 6" thing was the only reason I took them. (Though I've never had a scorpion kill anything, mine always whiff all their rolls) 

I still think Settra while stronger as a model now due to what you mentioned but paying almost 460pts for an 8 wound model is just too much imo. Even with the nerfs to shooting and such there is just too much ranged firepower in the meta still that can have him dead long before he can make an impact.