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GH2017 - Beastclaw Raiders Review & Discussion


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Hello guys I'm considering starting beastclaw , as I have an hunter, two tigers and 3 yeti from my ogre army. Buying a sc I reach exactly 980, and with a second one and few ally from my ogre, ( butcher and cannon) I can reach 2000. The doubt is , wich big beast to build ? One will be a regular one, the other a frost lord mounted. The army will be, more or less

hunter general

3 yeti 

2 tiger 

4 mournfang. With command, great weapon

regular beast 

for the 980

to reach 2000 with a second start collecting 

frostlord on xxxxx 460

4  mournfang  with command  ( second unit) 320

remain 240 points wich I can take ogre ally . 

 

What at do you think?

 

 

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@Daniel saxcloud

I'd seriously suggest looking at magnetising the Big Beasties, that will give you the ability to try out all the different combinations and it doesn't require much to actually do it. I think it was @heywoah_twitch who said it was something like 2 head choices, 2 saddle choices and then the choice between Frostlord and Huskarl for the single saddle. When combined with the pure size of the model it should be simple and easy to do!

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Stonehorn - If the Thundertusk has got into combat then something wrong has happened.

Reasoning - the whole point of the thundertusk is its breath attack, which quickly drops down in damage when the tusk takes wounds. therefore avoid combat.

Also, the Frostlord has a nifty attack with his frost spear, so you want to get him into combat. The stonehorns superior movement (as well as the run and charge mechanic), along with its (albeit heavily nerfed) survivability, means you want your frostlord to be riding this beasty.

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Im not a big magnet guy, but whoever suggested it for bcr behemoths was quite right - it's a very economical solution.

Now flavor-wise I personally do not do this because thundertusk and stonehorns are distinct species! I have them painted up quite differently from skin to fur coloring and so simply taking one's head off and putting it on another his body totally wouldn't work. 

As a final note mostly in agreement, Huskard is the only type of Thundertusk you'll ever want to run, but all three stonehorn types can work (though the nerfs hurt).

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On 10/18/2017 at 4:00 PM, Caffran101 said:

Stonehorn - If the Thundertusk has got into combat then something wrong has happened.

Reasoning - the whole point of the thundertusk is its breath attack, which quickly drops down in damage when the tusk takes wounds. therefore avoid combat.

Also, the Frostlord has a nifty attack with his frost spear, so you want to get him into combat. The stonehorns superior movement (as well as the run and charge mechanic), along with its (albeit heavily nerfed) survivability, means you want your frostlord to be riding this beasty.

BCR - all about smashing face into enemy units and wrecking havoc. Sure it has its lore of frosty winter magic, however to think that the stonehorn is not viable and that having to take thundertusk's and NOT get into combat seems really weird for the army as a whole. The whole army wants to charge and get into combat.

As for the stonehorn nerf, is it really that bad? I have no experience with it yet. If charging into horde units is not a good thing, would it not be better to charge smaller more elite units instead, and perhaps use Mournfangs to hit the horde units? 

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So I have 1000 points BCR that I was working on slowly over 2017 and kind of lost steam with GHB 2017. It's hard to know what to build now but at the same time I want BCR to be my AoS army number 2. I love their look.

I originally wanted to go behemoth heavy. Now I think that's not the best plan. Here are the models I've built and painted so far:

2x Mournfang

Frostlord (magnetised) on Stonehorn

Icebrow hunter

 8x frost sabers

3x yetis

To paint:

2x Mournfang

1x Behemoth (I think I'll magnetise this as much as possible).

I am keen to make something that doesn't need to be a netlist (do we even have any? :) ) and that uses as many models as I have so far - I also don't want to buy much more stuff though I am set on 1 horde unit as I've a cool idea for colour and my ghb 2017 experience so far shows me that you need at least one big unit and you need a screen for sure.

The 2 list ideas I have are:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Leaders
Huskard on Stonehorn (380) - General - Command Trait : Everwinter's Master  - Blood Vulture - Artefact :  The Pelt of Charngar  
Icebrow Hunter (140)
Butcher (140)
Units
6 x Mournfang Pack (480) -Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160) -Gargant Hackers
40 x Grots (200)
Behemoths
Stonehorn Beastriders (360) - Beastclaw Raiders Battleline
Battalions
Jorlbad (120)
Allies (340)
Total: 1980 / 2000

 

and

 

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Leaders
Frostlord on Stonehorn (460) - General - Command Trait : Everwinter's Master  - Artefact :  The Pelt of Charngar  
Huskard on Thundertusk (380) - Blood Vulture - Artefact :  Ice Mammoth Skull Plate  
Icebrow Hunter (140)
Butcher (140)
Units
3 x Icefall Yhetees (120)
4 x Frost Sabres (80)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
2 x Mournfang Pack (160) -Gargant Hackers
2 x Mournfang Pack (160) -Gargant Hackers
40 x Grots (200)
Battalions
Skal (110)
Reinforcement Points (0)
Total: 1990 / 2000

 

I'm open to a bunch of criticism and suggestions. Maybe I should just go 3 behemoths? Maybe I should drop the butcher and go 60 grots and 3 behemoths and some mournfang?

One thing I'm very interested in is the mutability of the landscape. It's likely I will only finish painting this army by the time GHB 2018 rolls around and by then who knows what is good or not. So I'm thinking of what risks being totally redundant? I think magnetising my unbuilt behemoth helps here. I also don't feel 40 grots is an awful thing to have lying around if I go mixed destruction in 2018 or beyond. So I feel kind of okay in that regard.

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20 minutes ago, Lolpatrol said:

Random beginner question, but is there ever a strategic reason to run your Mournfang Pack units as more than 2's? 

In that list the Jorlbad lets you pile in 1 unit of mournfangs and attack right after the huskard on stonehorn if the unit is within 10. So if you keep the 2 units - huskard on stonehorn and 1 unit mournfang together it's probably (havent played it) better if it is a big unit of mournfang.

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I think they can ally with any troggoths yes. However I see their big weakness right now as a lack of bodies to hold objectives and to screen the behemoths from being killed turn 1 or 2. And the hag is like 360 alone (though I think pretty strong).

The thing is, bodies wise bcr can sort of bypass grots or the like entirely by just taking frost sabers, lots of em. They're the same as liberators. However, their unit size is 12 max.

It would free up the allies points for something else ofc.

/edit

So you could take like 2 x 12 sabers and screen as well as 40 grots (bigger base size). But that's twice the cost (approx) of 40 grots

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2 hours ago, Turragor said:

I think they can ally with any troggoths yes. However I see their big weakness right now as a lack of bodies to hold objectives and to screen the behemoths from being killed turn 1 or 2. And the hag is like 360 alone (though I think pretty strong).

The thing is, bodies wise bcr can sort of bypass grots or the like entirely by just taking frost sabers, lots of em. They're the same as liberators. However, their unit size is 12 max.

It would free up the allies points for something else ofc.

/edit

So you could take like 2 x 12 sabers and screen as well as 40 grots (bigger base size). But that's twice the cost (approx) of 40 grots

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders
Icebrow Hunter (140)
- General
Huskard on Stonehorn (380)
- Chaintrap 
Huskard on Thundertusk (380)
- Chaintrap 
Troggoth Hag (360)
- Allies
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers 
10 x Frost Sabres (200)
10 x Frost Sabres (200)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400
 

Something like that?

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Just a general question about Eurlbad.

The Huskard's melee weapons gain 1 damage. So, that should mean the Stonehorn's attacks too, right? They are technically his melee weapons.

 

 

Oh and here is another one.

If you play a Butcher and you give him an artefact. Can this be one from the BCR artefacts?

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21 minutes ago, Anaticula said:

Just a general question about Eurlbad.

The Huskard's melee weapons gain 1 damage. So, that should mean the Stonehorn's attacks too, right? They are technically his melee weapons.

 

 

Oh and here is another one.

If you play a Butcher and you give him an artefact. Can this be one from the BCR artefacts?

Theres been alot of discussion about this on the BCR facebook page, and the consensus is yes, it does indeed ( to hilarious effect really ). 

And in regards to the butcher- good question!

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1 hour ago, Anaticula said:

Oh and here is another one.

If you play a Butcher and you give him an artefact. Can this be one from the BCR artefacts?

I can't find any explicitly written answer in the tome or ghb2017.

Artefacts are taken by any Hero in a Beastclaw Raiders army. Allies are part of your army but don't share the same allegiance.

I'd say no as he's an ally isn't a Beastclaw Raiders Hero even if they're in the army. They're there as allies. Logically if they're not sharing the allegiance abilities they're not gaining the allegiances artefacts.

Now that'd mean they can't take any artefacts as I don't think you could take destruction artefacts for them in a Beastclaw allegiance army.

I could be wrong and some might prefer an FAQ for this. My interpretation is, for now, no artefacts on allied heroes.

 

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4 hours ago, Turragor said:

I can't find any explicitly written answer in the tome or ghb2017.

Artefacts are taken by any Hero in a Beastclaw Raiders army. Allies are part of your army but don't share the same allegiance.

I'd say no as he's an ally isn't a Beastclaw Raiders Hero even if they're in the army. They're there as allies. Logically if they're not sharing the allegiance abilities they're not gaining the allegiances artefacts.

Now that'd mean they can't take any artefacts as I don't think you could take destruction artefacts for them in a Beastclaw allegiance army.

I could be wrong and some might prefer an FAQ for this. My interpretation is, for now, no artefacts on allied heroes.

 

Though I don't like the answer I agree with your reasoning.

 

5 hours ago, Karchev23 said:

Theres been alot of discussion about this on the BCR facebook page, and the consensus is yes, it does indeed ( to hilarious effect really ). 

That makes the battalion really good!

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18 hours ago, Anaticula said:

Just a general question about Eurlbad.

The Huskard's melee weapons gain 1 damage. So, that should mean the Stonehorn's attacks too, right? They are technically his melee weapons.

Oh and here is another one.

If you play a Butcher and you give him an artefact. Can this be one from the BCR artefacts?

Echoing agreement with Karchev23. For reference, the relevant FAQ:

Page 117 – Allegiance Abilities, Mounts Change the second sentence to: ‘In all such cases, any command traits or magical artefacts can only be used to affect attacks made by the hero, and have no effect on attacks made by the their mount unless specifically stated otherwise.’

Battalion abilities are neither command traits nor magical artefacts, and so it works. Furthermore, the BCR battletome was the first (I believe) to specifically restrict mount bonuses from traits/artefacts in their descriptions even before the FAQ (see Famed Hunter).

12 hours ago, Anaticula said:

Though I don't like the answer I agree with your reasoning.

That makes the battalion really good!

Sadly his logic makes sense on the ally artefacts question. 

On the plus side, I already liked Eurlbad for turning all those awful but numerous punches and kicks and mournfang mount attacks into potential 6s for mortal wounds. But now with this violent revelation about the Huskard I'm excited to give it some more testing! My previous testing with the Jorl/Eurl battalions were that I would simply run out of steam (and wounds) by the bottom of turn 3 or so, lacking the staying power to finish the game with meaningful number of useful models. Already vulnerable to tarpits and being outnumbered, when every slain model hurts, I couldn't see running multiple stonehorns (however fun) when they tend to collapse under the weight of normal combats halfway through the game. Is this bonus damage enough to make something of a front-loaded damage list? Probably not, but I want to try it!

So far in post-ghb17 I've gone two main ways with it: One where I tried to double down on staying power, allying in a butcher to follow around a frostlord giving him mystic shield for a 2+ save, and equipping him with ice-mammoth skullplate or pelt of charn, though his offense suffered and paying 600 freaking points to make a stonehorn resilient is alarielle and stardrake territory - not exactly a great deal. The other way was just not playing stonehorns and running 4x mournfang per horn instead, which for less points have double the wounds, the same save, and better offense (though slower). And take the same damage from most weapons in the game (damage 1 -_-). This worked alright, though it made the army lists feel samey and a little dull.

Also tried Skal in various shapes and sizes, and while I definitely like two msu's of sabers running around babysitting objectives and stuff, the extra 250 for a Hunter+Battalion is totally polarizing. Really driving this feeling is how bad the Hunter's warscroll is. A hero with no rend, a 5+ save, and three conflicting jumbled ranged weapons is disheartening - and so if his deepstrike doesn't pan out you truly wasted 250 points. In the 5 or 6 games I've played with a skal I'm batting close to .500 for "allows me to rush ahead while he teleport captures // late game he swoops in to score a point" and .500 for "never really had a good opportunity to drop him into a meaningful place // he arrives, does 0 damage, then dies pathetically in some combat". 

I'm going to post little summary battle reports and stuff I've learned about my testing recently against seraphon, ironjaws, khorne, and some others. But I want to hear how it has been going for you guys too! Is there some Mad Lad out there winning with zero behemoths or gigantic double skals and we're all just doing it wrong?

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So 2 hours later and I thought about the eurlbad question again and now I think it doesn't work. 

"Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of all melee weapons used by the Eurlbad’s Huskard." (emphasis mine)

Specifically calling out the Huskard here, the model is called Huskard on Stonehorn, and each attack is specifically named after either the dude or his mount:

"Huskard's Punches and Kicks" "Stonehorn's Horns" "Stonehorn's Crushing Hooves"

So I think that it's trying its best to apply to just the punches and kicks. Although perhaps it would still work like facebook people want it to, I think the wording's intention is clear, but as always, improperly loose (gw hire me I can do technical rules writing).

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Last week I played this list

Huskard on thundertusk

Huskard on thundertusk

Butcher

Butcher

3 x 4 Mournfang cavalry

I'm still not sure if the butchers are worth it, they give a good support, as well being able to control some objectives in certain scenarios.

The mournfang are good, but really unreliable due to their 4+ to hit I thought the butchers would mitigate that, but their are really unreliable, and I tend to spread them, so I cannot stack their bonuses.

I'm starting to think about trying a Braggoth BeastHammer list, even if I don't like playing greenskins in an ogre list ( eventually I will try to convert them in ogors riding giant pigs )

to give them the nice +1 to hit.
 

I played against a nurgle blightknight list, the -1 to hit hurt me a lot, I got tarpited in giant blobs  of blightknigt, and lost the game.

 

Second game I played against sylvaneth, the thundertusk helps a lot sniping enemy heroes, and the mournfang managed to do some damage with their charge ( I lost 2 mournfang because of a charge in a sylvaneth wyldwood x) ), but I won because of the scenario ( focus of power thing ),

 

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22 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

So 2 hours later and I thought about the eurlbad question again and now I think it doesn't work. 

[stuff I said]

Ok, it's been a day later and now I think it does work. Again. So I once again agree with @Karchev23 and the facebook people.

vizzini.png.c1e1701afd2dfe70d0b7162a36c6d6d7.png

So it says "Add 1 to the Damage characteristic of all melee weapons used by the Eurlbad’s Huskard." 

"Weapons" is plural, and the Huskard only has one ability called Huskard's suchandsuch, and so the only reason they'd make that plural is to include the mount attacks. Coupled with the faq only excluding command traits and artefacts from things affecting mounts, it's inconceivable that it doesn't work!

 

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