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GH2017 - Bonesplitterz Discussion


bonzai

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29 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

You don't know how much salt I get for using range with O&G... I got the same salt back in 8th ed when I used doom divers, rock lobbas, and spear chuckas. This has led to countless negative comp. and sports votes so the following will be tongue and cheek as I educate you on why ranged is completely with in the fluff!

Thanks for the education, but I don't need it.  :P  I have no problems with people playing the Kunning Rukk.  I understand completely why they do so.  If there is any issue with that then it falls on the heads of the designers for making it the optimal choice.

I have no issue with Orc & Goblin shooting.  I fielded huge batteries of spear chukkas in 8th edition and took a bunch of Rock Lobbas and Doom Divers also.   My Night Goblins used converted Dwarf Stone Throwers and Bolt Throwers - so that it would visually and thematically fit the Night Goblin hatred of Dwarves.  I also took a Common Goblin general for my Night Goblin army in 8th edition.  It honestly annoyed me to have to do it, but he had a higher leadership and that is simply something you could never ignore in a goblin army going all the way back to 4th when I started playing.  It was especially important in 8th since the Crown of Command no longer existed and that crutch item was a mandatory item for Goblins for multiple editions.

I really hate comp scores in events.  I disagree completely with people getting negative scores for doing something the game and tournament organizers allow you to do.  If a tournament wants specific types of lists - then they can simply make a set of comp rules for the tournament.  Otherwise, if the rules let you do it then it should be fair game.  I understand the issue there is that GW games have always been fairly abusable from a high-level play point of view - but that is a problem with the design of the game.  It is not the fault of the player.   In fact, it really punishes creative thinking.  Honestly, anyone putting a negative comp on an Orc & Goblin army from 4th to 8th is a ****** - as it has never really been a top tier army.  Real success with Orcs & Goblins has generally come down to a combination of out of the box list design and extremely good play.  People did win events and place highly from time to time with the army - but if you investigate those situations it often comes down to some seriously impressive generalship and that is something you can do with every army.

I don't mind soft scores for painting or good sportsmanship (although you have to be careful about giving people tools to negatively impact someone simply because they might beat you), but punishing people for using the tools available is not something I endorse.

I like shooting orcs.  I enjoyed small blocks of orc archers in multiple editions.  In 8th edition the small blocks of Savage Orcs with bows (units of 10) were surprisingly versatile and useful.  But part of that was because they were just about as good at hitting people with their bows as they were at shooting with them.  And artillery has always been a mainstay and strength of the greenskin faction as far back as I can recall.

I have no issues whatsoever with anyone fielding the Kunning Rukk.  Nor do I have any issues with it being a viable tactic or playstyle.  Where I do have issues is with it being the dominant and main competitive option for an army that is overwhelmingly concerned with beating people in the head with rocks. That issue is 100% due to the game designers who wrote the rules and assigned the point values.  I value Orcs and Goblins having shooting, and I enjoy when a game or army allows you to buck the trend and play something different.  That said, the Bonesplitterz main theme is about a handful of delusional lunatics leading a bunch of frenzied nut-jobs to go bash things in a wave of physical violence.  The "standard" out of the box way to play this force should be with a heavy emphasis on melee. 

As for the fluff, the background for the Kunning Rukk is just as much about melee as it is about ranged.  It just so happens that the most potent rules interaction within it is for ranged combat since it allows you the highest concentration of force with the least amount of necessary positioning and also the least amount of retaliation.  But in regards to fluff, the Kunning Rukk is as much about a Boss leading a force of boyz into combat and catching the opponent off guard with his surpringly kunning tactics as it is about showering them with arrows - hence the line about "bashes them from behind".

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

As for the fluff, the background for the Kunning Rukk is just as much about melee as it is about ranged.  It just so happens that the most potent rules interaction within it is for ranged combat since it allows you the highest concentration of force with the least amount of necessary positioning and also the least amount of retaliation.  But in regards to fluff, the Kunning Rukk is as much about a Boss leading a force of boyz into combat and catching the opponent off guard with his surpringly kunning tactics as it is about showering them with arrows - hence the line about "bashes them from behind".

I like to ignore the following line:

As much fun as orruks have fillingsomething full of arrows, they eventually get bored of standing around on hills and letting other orruks do all the close-up killing.  (pg. 37 Bonesplitterz  battletome)

Selective quotes can always make ones point ;p 

 

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7 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I like to ignore the following line:

As much fun as orruks have fillingsomething full of arrows, they eventually get bored of standing around on hills and letting other orruks do all the close-up killing.  (pg. 37 Bonesplitterz  battletome)

Selective quotes can always make ones point ;p 

 

I get it.  And I don't have any issue with you deciding that you want an army that plays like Xerxes' Persian army from 300 and have your arrows blot out the sun.

But, it does bother me that the army itself is written in such a way that the uphill battle to be effect is with the main fluff-oriented playstyle.  In my opinion, Bonesplitterz should be best at bashing or stabbing things.  Having a force based around archery be effective is fine - but it should not be so much obviously better.

Honestly, looking at the unit entries more and comparing them to other new books, one of the issues that stands out to me is that standard savage orcs only have a single attack - and morboyz only have 2 due to dual wielding.  The "frenzy" aspect of Savage Orcs seems to have been dropped from the Bonesplitterz.  It seems to me that all Savage orcs should have 2 attacks base - and then the units that are dual wielding should have an extra attack on top of that.  And then they should layer on the various benefits for large units.

Just look at the new Elves.  Namarti Thralls get 2 attacks base, with very good to-hit and to-wound values.  Then they get an extra attack on top of that against 1 wound models and extra damage against 4+ wound models.  The Witch Elves get 2 attacks base, an extra attack for dual daggers, and then another attack if there is a hero nearby (they can get 60 point priestesses...).  Witch Elves and Savage Orcs are fairly similar unit types.  Both are frenzied berserkers in light armor.  The difference between these units should probably be that the to-hit/to-wound for Witch Elves is slightly better, but the Savage orcs have an extra wound since they are physically tougher to kill.

Toss an extra melee attack on most of the various Savage Orcs and the current prices would probably be much better aligned.

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Having a force based around archery be effective is fine - but it should not be so much obviously better.

Honestly, looking at the unit entries more and comparing them to other new books, one of the issues that stands out to me is that standard savage orcs only have a single attack - and morboyz only have 2 due to dual wielding.  The "frenzy" aspect of Savage Orcs seems to have been dropped from the Bonesplitterz.  It seems to me that all Savage orcs should have 2 attacks base - and then the units that are dual wielding should have an extra attack on top of that.  And then they should layer on the various benefits for large units.

Just look at the new Elves.  Namarti Thralls get 2 attacks base, with very good to-hit and to-wound values.  Then they get an extra attack on top of that against 1 wound models and extra damage against 4+ wound models.  The Witch Elves get 2 attacks base, an extra attack for dual daggers, and then another attack if there is a hero nearby (they can get 60 point priestesses...).  Witch Elves and Savage Orcs are fairly similar unit types.  Both are frenzied berserkers in light armor.  The difference between these units should probably be that the to-hit/to-wound for Witch Elves is slightly better, but the Savage orcs have an extra wound since they are physically tougher to kill.

Toss an extra melee attack on most of the various Savage Orcs and the current prices would probably be much better aligned.

Completely agree... Till this day comes

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

have your arrows blot out the sun

I hope we see a move away from 30x3 battleline in the next handbook. I am still highlighting arrowboyz that I started when the GH2 dropped. It would be great for spears, boars, and stabbas to not be completely out shined by the kunning rukk.

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We are likely to see some point change in Bonesplitterz short term. To see more melee, we need to see a change in point ratio. But even there it will be hard to not justify not taking at least 30 arrowboys in any competitive list, just because it give you versatility.

I'm not even sure what make Bonesplitterz a middle T1 army right now is the Kunnin ruk. I think 30 arrowboys is a really versatile units (high threath range, damage saturation, high model count and resistant). Spearman and Morboys suffer a bit that they are just inferior to arrowboys in block of 30 (spearman scaling ability is mediocre at best). Moreboys are somewhat ok in group of 10 (probably even better than 10 archer) but not fantastic. However, both boar units are pretty good.

Bonesplitterz are good for the following reason:

- Mobility: Hand of gork is an incredible spell (specially on boar units)

- Range threath (arrowboys)

- Damages spike (buffed arrowboys/boarboys maniak with and kunnin ruk)

- High rend/Mortal wound output (Big stabbas, spell selection and wurgog mask)

I think at this a slight point ajustment could open the playable list. Maybe put Spearman at 110/270 and increase arrowboys at 130. 30 spearman at 270 might be playable over 30 arrowboys at 390. 

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Being able to knock out enemy support hero's with pure weight of fire is hugely important. You fire so many shots that the law of averages kicks in as opposed to say the Maw-Krusha where the fists not hitting or being saved tanks his damage output.

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For anyone not in the FB group this was posted by Nicky Myland 5 months ago, I'm taking the requests as shoe ins for the next GH but that's just an assumption.

Nicky M. on 11/5/2017:

Question guys. I've been approached by a rules writer for GW. He's asked me to compile a list of tweaks and adjustments for the points and rules. Can you guys me some unbiased opinions?

Update on the feedback I received from you guys earlier in months.

I've requested a points reduction in;
-savage orruks
-big stabbas
-maniaks 
-boar boys

Battleline to be removed from arrowboys

I think this will be a great fix to arrowboy spam which is the only viable thing to do at the moment. And to lead towards more brutal close combat tactics

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So first, I can do my best to be unbiased - but I've played Orcs & Goblins in almost all GW games since the early 90s so you can decide how unbiased that is...

When you say adjustments for rules, is that just for allegiance rules (including general traits & relics) or is that across the whole spectrum of Bonesplitterz rules (warscrolls, battalions, spells, etc)?  Obviously points will change each iteration of the General's Handbook.  I am more than happy to brainstorm up some alterations - I am simply curious how wide the request for input is?

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1 hour ago, svnvaldez said:

I've requested a points reduction in;
-savage orruks
-big stabbas
-maniaks 
-boar boys

Battleline to be removed from arrowboys

 

That's good new, i hope they go a bit more granular than 20 points, like 10 or even 5 pts.

I think cost reduction of the character too could help. 

Removing Arrowboys from battleline is a no brainer solution. I'm unclear if boar / maniak require point reduction tough.

Assuming a 10 pts granularity, i think it should be something like:

Big boss and Wardock: 90-100

Weirnob: 110

Wurgog: 120-130

big stabba: 90

orruk: 110 / 270

morboys, boarboys: 120

arrowboys: 130

Maniak: 150

and cheaper bataillion cause they are mostly bad, save kunnin ruk :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, broche said:

Bonesplitterz are good for the following reason:

- Mobility: Hand of gork is an incredible spell (specially on boar units)

- Range threath (arrowboys)

- Damages spike (buffed arrowboys/boarboys maniak with and kunnin ruk)

- High rend/Mortal wound output (Big stabbas, spell selection and wurgog mask)

I think at this a slight point ajustment could open the playable list. Maybe put Spearman at 110/270 and increase arrowboys at 130. 30 spearman at 270 might be playable over 30 arrowboys at 390. 

Don't discount our casting! We are the best casters in the destruction alliance. We have a lot of mortal wound spells, and we can get bonuses of +4 plus any Wardokk dance bonuses which also go toward unbinding.

I'd also say that our battalions are top notch as well.

1 hour ago, svnvaldez said:

For anyone not in the FB group this was posted by Nicky Myland 5 months ago, I'm taking the requests as shoe ins for the next GH but that's just an assumption.

Nicky M. on 11/5/2017:

Question guys. I've been approached by a rules writer for GW. He's asked me to compile a list of tweaks and adjustments for the points and rules. Can you guys me some unbiased opinions?

Update on the feedback I received from you guys earlier in months.

I've requested a points reduction in;
-savage orruks
-big stabbas
-maniaks 
-boar boys

Battleline to be removed from arrowboys

I think this will be a great fix to arrowboy spam which is the only viable thing to do at the moment. And to lead towards more brutal close combat tactics

Savage Orruks need the most help. They need to adjust the Mad with the Power of the Waagh rule to adjust for their reduced unit size. They lose their bonus with a single casualty as it stands. They could also use a points reduction to make them the stand out screener units. Right now there is no reason to take them. Especially with Arrowboys as battleline. 

Our Battalions could use some repointing as well. The Kopp Rukk is 200 points which is really pricey. Then you go for a Drakkfoot, and its another 160 points on top of it. Compare that to something like Seraphons firelance/dracothians tail which is 170 all together. It's completely out of whack points wise. Like wise an icebone and snagga rukk is 340. 

Our Path to Glory table needs to be looked at, as currently we can't take moreboys or arrowboys. As far as I am aware we are the only faction missing units.

Everything else will fall under wish listing.

If they want to follow the more modern battalions, they could start giving special rules for specific clans. I am anticipating this eventually so I am painting mine specifically as Drakkfoot.

We are in need of more units. Things I would like to see are;

A mounted big boss/wurrgog combo kit would be nice so that we can keep up with the boars and have some additional wounds.

A durable heavy infantry unit would be great. I am picturing save orruk big'uns, wearing bone armor with big choppers. Call them savage orruk bone breakers. They need a 4+ save, -2 rend, 3 wounds. On the army diagram, they would be the molars of the beast, that grind down the preys bones.

An alternative deployment unit. My idea would be Savage Orruk Stalkers.  They can pop up out side of 9 inches of enemy units, outside of 6 if its a behemoth. They would have a short range javalin attack and average melee. On the army diagram they would be the nose of the beast, that tracks and flushes out the beast.

Some sort of totem unit may not be amiss. Maybe several orks carrying a giant trophy skull.

Lastly, the army needs a big centerpiece model. My vote would be for squiggoths. I picture squiggoths with artillery on their backs. Things like net launchers and harpoons to help bring down large prey. Yeah, I know they are mosters, but they are too docile and domesticated to house gorka morka's spirit.

Thats my two cents at least. 

 

 

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Honestly Savage Orruks need to have Boneshield let them reroll saves of 1. With the Bonesplitterz warpaint having +1 to save in the combat phase is hilariously bad, especially when you consider what they are losing compared to Morboys. Having a reroll 1s would mean you are trading the extra offense for the defensive capabilities, would make it a choice.

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On 4/26/2018 at 12:41 AM, Malakree said:

Honestly Savage Orruks need to have Boneshield let them reroll saves of 1. With the Bonesplitterz warpaint having +1 to save in the combat phase is hilariously bad, especially when you consider what they are losing compared to Morboys. Having a reroll 1s would mean you are trading the extra offense for the defensive capabilities, would make it a choice.

It's actually not bad at all.. I run a unit of 30 Savage Orruks purely for their defensive power, and it is awesome. 60 battleshock immune wounds with a 4+ save in combat that forces your opponent to reroll hit rolls of 6 or more is incredibly resilient. The fact that the shield only works in combat is not an issue whatsoever - I'd thank any opponent for wasting their firepower on my meat shield. I run them 15"+d6" up the board turn 1, never die, and let my Arrowboyz behind turn the enemy units into pin cushions. It's actually very effective.

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Couldn't agree more of the special rule for the Savage Orruks for them to need to have 30 to get benefits. Points reductions in those area's too would help along the way also. 

Extra models like the mounted Boss and Wurrgog would be great too, the idea of a fully mounted Brutal Rukk just sounds crazy fun. Its kind of hoping for a lot to get some new models or updated special rules, but to be fair with the crazyness of some of these new armies, the older ones are  going to have to get updated to keep up. Otherwise sooner or later a rework is going to have to hit. 

Nothing against all these flashy new armies, but i would like to see destruction on the whole get a whole lot more love. Order, Death, and Chaos have had their time in the spotlight, so surely it must be Destructions now right ?  

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Lately I have found a new appreciation for Boar Boys and am thinking of trying out a Brutal Rukk. As an Ally, I am thinking of taking a unit of 10 Brutes. My thoughts are that the boar boys use their speed to tie up and harrass, while the the brutes act as a hammer to pound down threats. Has anyone else used them? How did they work in your list? Would Troggoths be better?

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16 hours ago, bonzai said:

Lately I have found a new appreciation for Boar Boys and am thinking of trying out a Brutal Rukk. As an Ally, I am thinking of taking a unit of 10 Brutes. My thoughts are that the boar boys use their speed to tie up and harrass, while the the brutes act as a hammer to pound down threats. Has anyone else used them? How did they work in your list? Would Troggoths be better?

If you have them try them out! Maybe run two giants or an arachnarok? If you have her the hag is an amazing addition to any army!

Felwater troggoths look solid. The shooting attack is at -2 rend with d3 damage so it's a great addition, plus their -1 to hit is amazing. 

 

Edit: So comparing the hag and normal felwater troggoths I'd say you go for the hag everytime. She costs the same as 6, has a better save, her regeneration is more potent, her breath is longer range, she's a wizard and doesn't take battleshock. She's just better for the points if you have a hero/behemoth slot open.

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Problem with brutes is their slow move... i tried once to splash 5 brutes in bonesplitterz and it was just not worth it. In theory they are a nice complement to the army (high melee spike damage and good for hunting high wounds model). Problem is it's really hard to bring them were you want. I did try to splash 3 trolls once too in a more casual game and surprisingly they felt better (even tough on paper they are pretty bad for their cost), but at least they move 6''.

But as @Malakree mention you're better with one Hag than 6 trolls almost everytime. 

However i expect troll will go down in points in the next GHB. But what i would like even better is that Troll and Giant could take allegiance of any army :) !

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10 hours ago, broche said:

Problem with brutes is their slow move... i tried once to splash 5 brutes in bonesplitterz and it was just not worth it. In theory they are a nice complement to the army (high melee spike damage and good for hunting high wounds model). Problem is it's really hard to bring them were you want. I did try to splash 3 trolls once too in a more casual game and surprisingly they felt better (even tough on paper they are pretty bad for their cost), but at least they move 6''.

But as @Malakree mention you're better with one Hag than 6 trolls almost everytime. 

However i expect troll will go down in points in the next GHB. But what i would like even better is that Troll and Giant could take allegiance of any army :) !

Yep, agreed!  GA-wide crossovers are an area where Destruction has been left way behind.  Slaves to Darkness can (and do) take any Mark, so you get the combos with Chaos Knights and Warriors, Marauders as cheap Battleline and batallion fillers for things like Plaguetouched Warband.  

Allowing Monsters of Destruction to take keywords would be awesome.  I don't see how it's letting a cat out the bag that's worse than something like the Loremaster or Celestial Hurricanum.

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Its #SCGT18 time  and I am taking the Boyz for a fun outing again.

My choice at the moment is, should I take the list from Heat 1 which I did so well with or should I change it up a little?

Heat 1 list

Allegiance: Bonesplitterz

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
- General
- Trait: Squirmy Warpaint 
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Squiggly Curse
Maniak Weirdnob (120)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Hand of Gork or Mork
Wardokk (100)
- Artefact: Big Wurrgog Mask 
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Bone Krusha

Battleline
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (320)
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (320)
10 x Savage Boarboyz (240)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)

Units
6 x Savage Big Stabbas (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 196
 

Two of the missions are from Malign Portents so I am thinking of taking our Harbinger. He is truly awsome in those two missions with the MP tables, however in the other 4 games he is just a wizard who can cast arcane bolt, mystic shield and a very short range spell that means he is too close to the enemy and dies very quickly.

Allegiance: Bonesplitterz

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (140)
- General
- Trait: Squirmy Warpaint 
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Squiggly Curse
Maniak Weirdnob (120)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (100)
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Hand of Gork or Mork
Wardokk (100)
- Artefact: Big Wurrgog Mask 
- Lore of the Savage Waaagh: Bone Krusha
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (320)
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (320)
5 x Savage Boarboyz (120)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)

Units
6 x Savage Big Stabbas (300)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 185
 

Its going to be a tough choice I think.

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@Kanamorf I think both list are decent. If you go for fungoid you could swap a wardock for a weirnob. I think that's probably the best choice assuming fungoid really give you an edge in 2 games.

How squirmy warpaint working for you? personnally i never found it that usefull!

good luck!

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1 hour ago, broche said:

@Kanamorf I think both list are decent. If you go for fungoid you could swap a wardock for a weirnob. I think that's probably the best choice assuming fungoid really give you an edge in 2 games.

How squirmy warpaint working for you? personnally i never found it that usefull!

good luck!

I did comtemplate swapping wardokk for a wierdnob but I have become attached to the wardokk dance. My first wardokk with Hand of Gork is usually hiding somehwere out of range of just about everything on the board so his dance is usually out of range too, so the second wardokk who runs up the table with the horde gives some nice buffs if you are lucky.

Squirmy Warpaint has kept my General alive many times, this may be because my regular opponents know I am going to use him as a mortal wound source to their characters, but I find it very useful. Its been so long since I took anything else I can't remember off hand what the other options do :)

My plan for the weekend is as normal 3 goals:

  1. Win a game
  2. Win more games than I loose
  3. Take over the world Win the tournament

I have been lucky recently coming second at Heat 1. I really am not expecting that level of success/luck again so quickly

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Not a huge fan of that amount of boars and stabbas, but I get that mass boars are your thing. I'm wondering, what's the thought process behind your spell selection? I wouldnt put Brutal Beast Spirits on the Maniak Weirdnob, since I want to use his own spell every turn. On the other hand, your Maniak Boars already have some rerolls, so perhaps you find that you don't need it?

I like the second list more, but I'd rather reduce the Stabbas than the Boars. 10 Boars are a pretty decent meat shield with mystic shield. I'd also consider swapping one of the damage spells for Kunnin Beast Spirits, which makes them even tankier.

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yes i play the same strategy as you (hand of gork on wardock and hiding him behind a tower) but my running wizard become a weirnob (so he ride faster) and he can use his spell instead of bone krusha early game (might be better in some situation), that worked well for me ;)

Other choice instead of warpaint is +1 charge in 10'' (never bad, would be excellent with better reach) or reroll first failed bravery (that way it's very unlikely your stabba will flee.

45 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Not a huge fan of that amount of boars and stabbas, but I get that mass boars are your thing. I'm wondering, what's the thought process behind your spell selection? I wouldnt put Brutal Beast Spirits on the Maniak Weirdnob, since I want to use his own spell every turn. On the other hand, your Maniak Boars already have some rerolls, so perhaps you find that you don't need it?

I like the second list more, but I'd rather reduce the Stabbas than the Boars. 10 Boars are a pretty decent meat shield with mystic shield. I'd also consider swapping one of the damage spells for Kunnin Beast Spirits, which makes them even tankier.

On the opposite I like the boar swarm pretty much. The give you a long range melee threath with hand of gork. Normal boys retreat and charge is really really god, and maniak hits really hard. 

A variant in the second list would be to drop 10 maniak for 30 arrowboys, might be better in some matchup, worse in some other. 

6 big stabbas is the sweet spot. Usually 1-2 will die in shooting so that leave you a decent strike force. Against melee army they're godly espacially with the Wurgog ability. Also one of your only asset agains Fyreslayer (a really hard matchup)

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

What do you guys think of the new unbinding range on units? It's kind of a double edged sword, but at least on my Drakkfoot I should have at least a 3+ to cast rolls plus 3 chances at rolling a weird dance. Plus the weird dance gives bonuses to unbind as well, so it should be ok. 

Personally I think the new range is a little long, but we will see.

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