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GH2017 - Bonesplitterz Discussion


bonzai

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I was really excited to go over the leaks for the GHB2, and see what changes were in store for my army. I expected a nerf to kunning Rukk, but man they didn't stop there!

Our max unit sizes have been dropped, and ALL formations have been increased across the board.  Boyz, arrow boys, savage big boss, wierdnob, and Wardokks all went up 20 points. 

How bad is it? A base Drakkfoot Warclan formation is now 1,040 points. That's two squads of 10 morboys, 3 wardokks, and a Wurrgog. I used to run a Drakkfoot Warclan with a Snagga Rukk and a unit of 10 savage Orruks at 1500. The same list comes in at 1890 now. 

The only bone I see that they threw us is that Arrowboys are now troops with Bonesplitterz allegiance. In my opinion this is going to make us even more mono build. Why take Savage Orruks  when arrowboys are just as cheap and also troops? Why take moreboys ever, when the only benefit for taking them is Drakkfoot/kop Rukk which is now prohibitively expensive. 

Now you are going to almost have to take the most efficient and effective formations, just to make up for the points hike. Before there was no real reason not to take lots of formations, but now they are a serious investment (especially the Warclans).

My new list is going to be a 1,000 point Kunning Rukk (2x30 arrowboys, savage warboss, Rukk), a Snagga Rukk (2x wierdnob shamans, 2x 5 boarboy maniacs, Snagga Rukk), and 3 big stabba units for 2,000 points. I really don't see any other lists right now.

Maybe I am over reacting. What is everyone else's thoughts?

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Almost every battalion in the game went up 60 to 100 points based on the leaks.  So in that regard everyone feels the pain.  Beyond that I think bonesplitterz got the short end of the stick more so than others. They already had a post GH book so nothing new in traits or relics were coming. And kunnin  rukk was so prolific they swung the nerf bat so hard they kinda broke the rest of the army.  They should have looked at some other point adjusts to compensate but didnt. Could be wrong amd I am missing something.  just what it looks like to me. 

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Bonesplitterz needed a nerf though. I don't care even if they haven't recently been seen winning the tournaments, 100 points for 20 wound worth of models is just ridiculous (especially when you compared them to majority of other factions with similarly priced units). Also a lot of the strong kombos (skyfires, thundertusks, kurnoths, stronger batallions, etc.) got nerfed, had they not done the same for bonesplitterz, they would be dominating the meta. Also I don't think those changes were too bad over all, considering they could haven gone overboard and increase these guys 40 points instead of 20.

Also, as it was said above, battallion changes hurt everyone. Whether those changes are good or bad for the game is up for debate, but it's not a army specific problem to be complaining about (besides, kunnin rukk also needed nerf).

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Overall I am not too surprised.  The points increase on the Arrowboyz is fine and 100% acceptable, as is the same bump on the stock Savages.  The Rukk jumps are inline with the other battalion hikes. I am also okay with the 30 max cap on Arrowboyz.  The two I am not sure about are the bump ups on the Wardok and the Savage Big Boss.  They both were a little cheap but when combined with all the other nerfs it seems an bit egregious. 

I still think the army is fine though.  The competitive crowd can still run a rock hard double Rukk list and there are still some fluffy options.  I am looking at allying in a Rogue Idol or a Colossal Squig.

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46 minutes ago, TheNotebookGM said:

Was I correct in also seeing no allies were assigned to Bonesplitterz?

They do, they are listed under the formation section. They can ally with pretty much with all non-ogre factions.

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39 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:

I still think the army is fine though.  The competitive crowd can still run a rock hard double Rukk list and there are still some fluffy options.  I am looking at allying in a Rogue Idol or a Colossal Squig.

I was really looking forward to running an Idol too. Now it's going to be a tough fit. Yeah, the Rukk was too good. But the changes really did nothing to make other options more attractive. If anything it encourages more arrowboys now that they are troops. 

Hmm. Moreboys are troops now aren't they? I may try;

Drakkfoot Warclan

Kop Rukk

Wurrgog Prophet

3x Wardok

2x 20 Moreboys

2x 5 Boarboy Maniacs

Rogue Idol

Total: 2,000

The wardokks can get a +3 to their casting and can cast bloodwaagh on a 5+, and with the Wurrgog command traits that's 2 extra pile ins a turn, not counting the maniacs ability.  With Brutal beast spirits and the Kop Rukk the Moreboys get +1 to hit, +1 to wound. As soon as a monster died (including the idol) they get another +1 to wound. 

I'll certainly give it a try at least, and it feels fluffy. Not sure how competitive it is, but at least it's not Kunning Rukk.

 

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Running a Rogue Idol in a bonesplitters list makes some sense, and is a good addition to making the list more powerful. I am incredibly hesitant (read that as would NEVER do it) to add a real 'monster' like a stone horn or COlossal squig into the list as literally that is what the army seeks to do, kill the big stuff!

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4 minutes ago, Tanka said:

Running a Rogue Idol in a bonesplitters list makes some sense, and is a good addition to making the list more powerful. I am incredibly hesitant (read that as would NEVER do it) to add a real 'monster' like a stone horn or COlossal squig into the list as literally that is what the army seeks to do, kill the big stuff!

Yeah, having a idol of their god animate from the enormous amounts of waagh energy they put out feels ok to me. The only other monster I could potentially justify is summoning an Incarnte Elemental of Beasts. 

Ironicaly Bonesplitterz are one of the few armies that can summon one. It's an insane 11 to cast, but you can get +2 from Kop Rukk, +1 from the Idol, +1 from a balewind, and possibly another +1 from boney bitz.

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1 hour ago, angrycontra said:

Bonesplitterz needed a nerf though. I don't care even if they haven't recently been seen winning the tournaments.

There was a tournament like a month ago that Ben Curry was talking about, double Kunnin Rukk took first place.

Bonesplittaz got the well deserved nerf bat.  They make the game completely non-fun for their opponent in 99% of games. Hopefully it is enough to change that. I hope savage orc enthusiasts can still find joy in their army, but I also hope that over-competitive powergamers have a crying fit and ragequit. 

In the end, you now get arrowboys as battleline at 6pt for wound, making them on par with zombies for cost. They are in great shape.

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Everything sounds fair to me the 'spliterz were well underpriced (as were everyone's battalions).

The drop in maximum unit size was essential to manage the Kunnin Rukk which powerful or not was being used in a way that sucked the fun from the game.

I'm looking forward to hearing about some more builds unitising the more interesting combat movement shenanigans available to the them.


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23 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Everything sounds fair to me the 'spliterz were well underpriced (as were everyone's battalions).

The drop in maximum unit size was essential to manage the Kunnin Rukk which powerful or not was being used in a way that sucked the fun from the game.

I'm looking forward to hearing about some more builds unitising the more interesting combat movement shenanigans available to the them.


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That's kinda my point. I don't think it really solved much, and probably takes away from diversity in the long run. It's potentially 60 less shots, you still get 180. Is 180 vs 240 going to tip the fun factor back in the right direction? Probably not. Yeah it is more expensive, but you can make up points by needing less battle line.

Those who were running the formation are still going to, they just have less points for variety. How many non kunning Rukk Bonesplitterz allegiance armies were you facing before? I'd wager it's going to be less now.

If you remove arrowboys and the kunning ruck out of the equation, what does the army have left? That's why I am going with the Drakkfoot to capitalize on the spellcast that the army has, but it is in no way points efficient. Our casting is good, but it isn't Tzeentch good. 

I also play Skaven and Deathrattle. Clan rats and skeletons are superior damage dealers to anything but arrow boys in our army. Start throwing in synergies and formations and their output can get similar to a kunning Rukk . 40 skeletons with spears next to a necromancer. That's 3 attacks each, 4's and 4's. 120 attacks, followed by a Danse Macabre and that's the same 240 dice as the old Kunning Rukk. Yes it's assault vs range, but the point was that arrowboys were the only thing that had that volume. 

Without volume of attacks you can go for quality, and for that we have big stabbas and little else. Rend 2 and 3 damage is good, but with 4 attacks per 100 points and hitting on 4's it's only slightly better than 10 normal Orruks and more fragile.

I hope I'm wrong and this ushers in a new era of diversity and fun for Bonesplitterz, but I just don't see it. I'll still play mine and have fun. Ally's will breath some life into it (Ironjaws wierdnob shaman would be excellent), but I don't think the nerfs will accomplish what they intended. 

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I'm of a like mind @bonzai - the objectives should have been to 'nerf ' kunnin rukk arrowboys and to make other bonesplitterz builds more attractive. Perhaps there's something in the book for us we are yet to see but on the surface neither of these have been sufficiently achieved. Personally I was hoping that Maniaks would come down slightly so we would see more all-boar fighting lists! That's the way I favour playing the army, at least. But sadly I can see BS players falling back harder on Arrowboyz. 

 

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5 hours ago, bonzai said:

Our max unit sizes have been dropped, and ALL formations have been increased across the board.  Boyz, arrow boys, savage big boss, wierdnob, and Wardokks all went up 20 points. 

 

All formations have been increased across the board, not just the Bonesplitters. So it's tough to rearrange your favorite set up. But for me it keeps it fresh. Part of the fun right:D 

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Hey,

What people need to realise is that all Battalions in the game have increased. I keep seeing people who have looked at one leaked page from a French GH2017 or whatever and flipped out because their favoured army build is "unusable". The thing about raising a Battalion cost is that, actually, it doesn't render any army unusable...you can still use the exact same models, you just may not be able to fit in the Battalion for the juicy bonuses....so it's more of a decision. Do you drop a unit for the extras afforded by the Battalion, or do you opt to keep more models on the table? Everyone is in the same boat here and it's going to be interesting. I would suggest building from the ground up.

As for Bonesplitterz, reducing the unit cap down to 30 was something I recommended in my direct feedback. I'm sure others will have advised similar as it's a great way to fix the Kunnin' Rukk (along with suitable points increases, which is exactly what they've done IMO).

I'd love to see a change in the way Bonesplitterz play, with a more combat orientated approach to the game (How I suspect they were expected to be played). With the new battleplans very much focussing on model count, I think Bonesplitterz will still be solid.

The sky isn't falling.

 

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I don't think the objective was to make the Kunning Rukk unusable just less effective so that it needed to be used alongside other tactics. There's lots of interesting things in the Battletome that can be used to increase combat potential. Double attacking maniaks, let me at em, hand of Gork and others they just weren't being used as much because the Kunnin Rukk was just so point and click reliable.

 

 

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Well, cost of battalions affects our extra items which made our army more fun. Now you won't be able to equip your Wardokks with extra stuff. Eg. Big Wurggog Mask cost is now +120 pts (+20 for hero, 100 for any battalion).

Bigger problem is having a full Warclan which gives the 5+ mortal save. Previously to achieve this you had to have 2200-2400 pts, so theoreticaly would fit in 2500pts. Now full Warclan is well beyond 2500 pts. Looks like someone forgot about 3 pages in the book...

 

The good thing is we can use the Warboss (on boar + banner) for the extra attacks for melee, and (IJ)Weirdnob on Vortex who can benefit from a lot of BS bodies. Allies and melee is the new direction for savages..

 

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I hear you @Chris Tomlin - probably the battalions is a moot point. And going forward my aim will certainly still be for a close-combat oriented Bonesplitterz. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose cursor is hovering over "Pre-order" on the Forgeworld Rogue Idol of Gork (or even Mork). I can't wait to see what people do with these painting-wise and with other allied factions to boot. 

That said, I still think @bonzai made a good point about the need to make other BS builds more attractive. Personally I've never really liked the Arrowboys approach - just never felt fluffy. Orcs should be getting up in people's faces! Whilst it's true that we will have to work from the ground up, if you look at the BS battletome I'd argue that our troops can perhaps be a bit vanilla without the advantages that come from the Battalions and possibly overcosted given their sheer lack of durability (glass cannon is an apt label). I'm not sure what other people think of this (genuinely interested to hear), and I should note I'm a fairly inexperienced player, but when I've come up against say, hordes of skeletons or Stormcast eternals, I've felt my close-combat builds needed as much punch as they could get! And before that would probably have come from battalions. It's tricky though. I think if Maniaks had been reduced to 140 they'd be broken, but at 160 they feel slightly overcosted.

As you say though, ground-up...

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3 hours ago, bonzai said:

I also play Skaven and Deathrattle. Clan rats and skeletons are superior damage dealers to anything but arrow boys in our army. Start throwing in synergies and formations and their output can get similar to a kunning Rukk . 40 skeletons with spears next to a necromancer. That's 3 attacks each, 4's and 4's. 120 attacks, followed by a Danse Macabre and that's the same 240 dice as the old Kunning Rukk. Yes it's assault vs range, but the point was that arrowboys were the only thing that had that volume. 

The thing is, because skeletons are close combat, they're highly unlikely to get in a situation where the whole unit gets to attack. Whereas the arrowboys will be able to attack with their entire unit to concentrate fire.

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1 hour ago, ReynakZhen said:

The thing is, because skeletons are close combat, they're highly unlikely to get in a situation where the whole unit gets to attack. Whereas the arrowboys will be able to attack with their entire unit to concentrate fire.

You would be surprised just how many can though. With 2 inch spears and old square bases you can technically get 3 rows. I've had that done to me before. Lol.

 

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in my experience running a kunnin ruck, my savage big boss was usually sniped out by turn 2 or 3, and the arrow boyz did fine without him. Even before the ghb2017 changes i was considering running multiple blocks of 20 arrow boyz, 60 shots per turn, 40 wounds on an objective and you don't really care if they die because they're pretty cheap.

I think we'll see 3 blocks of 20 arrow boyz as standard, then alot more fun stuff like big stabbaz and boar boyz around.

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I know it's early days (we've only got leaks after all) but I'm interested: what kinds of builds do Bonesplitters players think they'll create as we go forward into this new, possibly battalion-less era of GHB2? @bonzai has already posted an interesting idea for a Drakkfoot, spellcasters-heavy army. Myself, I'm interested in more combat heavy types of builds backed up with a bit of magic and a colossal Rogue Idol (!). 

An early idea I've put together is this... I'd love to fit in a Balewind Vortex for the Prophet, and would be tempted to drop something for one. (Edit:) I should probably add that I'm not really looking for an ultra-competitive list, but something middling that can pack a punch at a club level and be something fun to play with at tournaments (and that hopefully won't get regularly tabled!). 

Wurrgog Prophet 1 140
Savage big boss 1 120
Maniak weirdnob 1 120

 

Savage Orruks

 

30

 

300

Savage Boar Boyz 5 120
Boar Boy Maniaks 10 320
Boar Boy Maniaks 10 320
Savage Boar Boyz 5 120
     
Allies    
Rogue Idol   400
     
     
    1960
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