Sangfroid Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, sporadicMike said: Finally had an awesome experience with smashing and bashing. So thought I would share. 5 man unit of brutes took out a unit of prosecutors that dropped in my backfield. Then my Gore Gruntas took out 2 of his retributors before they got to go. Later in the game another 5 man unit of brutes finished off his unit of judicators. My mega boss on foot then took out a 5 man unit of liberators thanks in part to the destroyer artifact and his poor save rolls. Then my maw krusha took out another 5 man unit of liberators. Finally my Gore gruntas mentioned above were able to take out another retributor leaving him with only one. That lone star soul mace was all he got to attack with. After this combat round I was able to destroy two objectives on his side of the board. (scorched earth) His face showed it all, he was demoralised. I felt for the guy but then I remembered he was playing storm cast so....Waaaaaagggghhhhh! It's literally one of my most favourite things when a Megaboss just waaaaps off a whole unit in one go, when it's Tin-men, even sweeter. Great stories, these new allegience abilities working wonderfully :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 39 minutes ago, Samurai_Eduh said: I like the idea of 2x10 Brutes, but I have a feeling I'm going to see quite a few star drakes and if my brutes don't cripple it pretty quickly, they'll start evaporating as the drake eats 2-3 a turn. Have to say if your worried about stardrake then 20 Ardboyz is going to be even worse than another 10 brutes ;-) though tooled up with Ironclad command trait and metalrippa articfact our Mawkrusha is a very good anti stardrake piece now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron_Bathory Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 How are you guys finding the non-existent shooting phase? Has anyone tried out a unit of 30 savage archers? Even without kunnin ruk they do a crapload of damage aside from being a 60 wound unit. I'm playing Destruction right now but will be slowly moving into IJ. Wanted to finalize my list before I bought anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 7 hours ago, Baron_Bathory said: How are you guys finding the non-existent shooting phase? Has anyone tried out a unit of 30 savage archers? Even without kunnin ruk they do a crapload of damage aside from being a 60 wound unit. I'm playing Destruction right now but will be slowly moving into IJ. Wanted to finalize my list before I bought anything else. So personally I think Ironjawz right now might be weaker than a baseline destruction army. It's a tad on the expensive side points wise and doesn't really do any mortal wounds and your key unit (brutes) has low Bravery. As I've said elsewhere I think that the allies section of an IJ list is probably the most important choice in your army right now. It allows you to shore up one weakness the Ironjawz have (low wounds per point, Shooting, Magic) and then alter your main army to cater to that change. To take your savage archers as an example, having those 30 archers means you can now pick out key enemy targets, it also gives you something to protect. As a result Imo a unit of 30 Ardboyz goes up the priority list as it is a huge tar pit which gives your archers space to do the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, Malakree said: So personally I think Ironjawz right now might be weaker than a baseline destruction army. It's a tad on the expensive side points wise and doesn't really do any mortal wounds and your key unit (brutes) has low Bravery. As I've said elsewhere I think that the allies section of an IJ list is probably the most important choice in your army right now. It allows you to shore up one weakness the Ironjawz have (low wounds per point, Shooting, Magic) and then alter your main army to cater to that change. To take your savage archers as an example, having those 30 archers means you can now pick out key enemy targets, it also gives you something to protect. As a result Imo a unit of 30 Ardboyz goes up the priority list as it is a huge tar pit which gives your archers space to do the damage. While I agree with most of this taking archers would never work in a Ironjawz army...especially wasting so many points on Ardboys. Those 2 units are 810pts and you get nothing from it. A backfield unit then another unit to protect it? And for a no rend blob that has no bonuses, buffs, or synergies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Malakithe said: While I agree with most of this taking archers would never work in a Ironjawz army...especially wasting so many points on Ardboys. Those 2 units are 810pts and you get nothing from it. A backfield unit then another unit to protect it? And for a no rend blob that has no bonuses, buffs, or synergies To be fair I consider the block of 30 Ardboyz to be a solid investment whatever, when you add in MK and 2 units of 10 brutes you have a reasonable centre which the brutes can work around with the MK. I agree it's not the strongest, I'd rather go for the Gitmob combo since you get a wizard and your archers have rend, but each to their own. The general point I'm getting at is that Ironjawz has a pretty focused scope but within that scope it is arguably the best. Even the double Aleguzzlar Gargant is a questionable choice over the second MK. Our only reason to go outside of IJ is to get the options that we literally don't have, at which point you need to make sure your IJ list and your Allies list work together otherwise you should probably just take another 5/10 brutes. Artillery batteries are the obvious neutral choice if you just want that little extra without having to make the allies work with your list. Totally up for a discussion around that but I think we already had a thread going...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 Couple of thoughts after today's games (quickly before I forget) Enjoyed the Grots, they did what I'd hoped (held objectives and allowed better units to go off galavanting) Rock Lobbers are only worth it in batteries (unless you can roll well) Gargants are an expensive way to divert fire from your Mawkrusha. Not convinced at the mo. Needs babysitting by a wizard. (Caveat: this was vs 2x warp lightning cannons so even mystic shield wouldn't have helped) More thoughts to come when my brain stops melting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamer Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 At 450pts/60 wounds or 140pts/15 W I don't really agree that IJ is especially expensive/wound. Not even the Brutes are really expensive at 180pts/15W. What we lack is mobility (at least without Ironfist) and an answer to 2+, or maybe even 3, save with any kind of reroll. Why do we still hang on to brutes as the go-to-choice when both Ard boys and gruntas is much cheaper now, both faster and more resiliant to battleshock? Do they really lack the punch, considering they have a greater chance to actually pull of a charge, and get better positioning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Screamer said: At 450pts/60 wounds or 140pts/15 W I don't really agree that IJ is especially expensive/wound. Not even the Brutes are really expensive at 180pts/15W. What we lack is mobility (at least without Ironfist) and an answer to 2+, or maybe even 3, save with any kind of reroll. Why do we still hang on to brutes as the go-to-choice when both Ard boys and gruntas is much cheaper now, both faster and more resiliant to battleshock? Do they really lack the punch, considering they have a greater chance to actually pull of a charge, and get better positioning? One of the ironjawz strengths has always been that our 3 unit choices are battleline and each is good in its own way. In the "competitive ironjawz" thread which reallly should have been pinned we had a good discussion about them all at 180. Ardboyz and gruntas do roughly the same damage potential, one has 5 more wounds the other is 5" faster has less models but holds its combat power better. So as a 10 man v 3 pig unit with the points decrease I now think that 3 pigs ? is a clear winner now. However move up to 2x picks (so 20 Ardboyz or 6 pigs) points and damage wise gruntas win but you have a lot more board control and models so becomes a closer run thing. Finnaly at 3x picks (30 v 9) we have a strange situation where 30 Ardboyz covers so much board and can be used for the 2 20+ models scenarios, have 60 wounds and so are a really strong choice. But 9 pigs with 2" weapons still saves you 30pts and will be able to deliver that combat power over a much smaller area. This 9 strong unit interests me a lot but I lack the models to really give it go. Brutes have always been the much stronger offensive choice, they have always had the bravery weakness of course. However in all the games that i have played with brutes ultimately this combat power is usually the key to victory, BUT in combination with the other 2 choices. Im thinking now (and was moving this way towards the end of GHBv1) that the waaagh/mighty waaagh is vital and I want around 5/3 ratio of brutes to the others (so 25 brutes 30/9 Ardboyz/pigs) the way this is combined is list dependent (so could be 15, 2x5 & 30 Ardboyz etc....). This then gives you varying points to add in a Mawkrusha, support characters and or allies. I say this because when I have gone the other way (so 30 Ardboyz, 10 brutes and 6 pigs) I may have won games but always feel that it's not enough damage output and have usually struggled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 4 hours ago, Screamer said: At 450pts/60 wounds or 140pts/15 W I don't really agree that IJ is especially expensive/wound. Not even the Brutes are really expensive at 180pts/15W. So doing a "quick" check through on points per wound of various units. Where massive units are available I assume they are used, the only time this isn't that viable is on Spider Riders. Destruction Spoiler Ironguts are 16.7 points per wound (pts/w), Mournfang are 13.3 pts/w, Brutes are 12 pts/w, Goregruntas are 9.3 pts/w, Spider Riders are 9 pts/w, Ogors are 8.3 pts/w, Orruks are 8 pts/w, Squig Hoppers are 8 pts/w, Ardboyz are 7.5 pts/w, Cave Squigs are 6 pts/w, Savage Orruks are 5 pts/w, Gitmob Grots are 4.5 pts/w, Death Spoiler Hex Wraiths are 16 pts/w, Grave Guard are 14 pts/w, Crypt Horrors/Flayers and Spirit Hosts are 13.3 pts/w, Crypt Gouls are 9 pts/w, Skeleton Warriors are 7 pts/w, Zombies/Dire Wolves are 5.3 pts/w, Order Spoiler Phoenix Guard are 14 pts/w, Kroxigor and Protectors are 13.3 pts/w, Vulkite Berzerkers are 11 pts/w, Liberators are 8.7 pts/w, Saurus Warriors are 9 pts/w, So having gone through it, not going to bother with Chaos, I'm going to actually rescind my comment about points per wound and say yes you are right, we don't do that badly. Ironjawz suffers a little because of it's reliance on brutes who ARE expensive but Ardboyz are now amazing for that and Goregruntas are middle of the road. The big thing I noticed is that things which are on an equal expense cost as Brutes/Goregruntas are generally packing either some form of regeneration, like death, far better mobility or perhaps the biggest one is the wardsaves a bunch seem to have. Brutes on the other hand seem to swing well above their paygrade in terms of damage output but suck for mobility. The big weakness of Ironjawz is then the weakness to mortal wounds combined with low bravery on Brutes. On the other hand I've gained an even bigger respect for Ardboyz who are just so tanky. It's a shame they decided to make bloodtoofs basically unusable at 2000 points due to the ridiculous base cost, if it only required an Ironfist rather than a maxed out Ironfist it would be a massive boon to list building for IJ, not to mention the +4" charge on Ardboyz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 It may be just my lack of experience (only used it once and it had a torrid time against a Gaunt Summoner...) but I just can't fit that 30-strong Ardboy unit in, list wise, or tactically. @Sangfroid will be in a much better place to describe it's functionality (and probably already has multiple times in this thread) My issue with it is that I just don't know how to wield the thing. Brutes & Gruntas have very well defined roles on the table, they have a degree of flexibility sure, but by and large, you know what you want out of them and know their strengths & weaknesses. Ardboys in old GHB, were similar. They were the bigger (body-count) unit, capable of holding objectives, and supporting combat if needed. Ardboys in the new GHB however, feel different. In 10s they acheive the same goal, they're solid in that capacity, although with bigger units becoming more widespread, a 10-man unit feels kinda small of a sudden. 20-strong units of Ardboys are probably perfectly sized IMO, and have a great output, balanced footprint and flexible role (hold or smash) - however - you'll never take this, the points disparity alone just makes it weird, as it falls in that buy-2-get-3rd-half-price scenario. So the 30-strong is the most appealing (in terms of points value), but how do you use it? 450 has taken up a large amount of your army, do the whole 30 string out in/around objectives? Create one massive screen? Do they sit right at the back and deter teleports and board-edge shenanigans? Do they create a solid roadblock between terrain pieces? Do they head forward and get in the action? Are they now an offensive unit? All of these options are great in themselves, but in context to the rest of the army (elite infanty and cav), for me, it creates a bit of a dilemma. 450 feels like a lot of points if that unit is not one of your main sources of inflicting damage. Say it does though, say you launch the 30 foward... who holds objectives? Brutes need to be fighting, sometimes they can be that unit that holds back, but 99% of the time, they're contesting. So Gruntas? A viable option to be fair... a triangle of pigs around an objective is a decent way to hold something, especially as they're quick enough to move when needed. The problem comes when those gruntas are charged by units of 10+ (depending on the objective scenario). I'm not talking down Ardboys by the way, I'm trying to crowbar some in as we speak. But to be honest, it keeps ending up being that like-for-like points swap with Brutes (so instead of 4x5 Brutes, 3x5 Brutes + 1x10 Ards). Kinda wishing we had 90pt units of 5 right now, maybe a 15-strong unit would have been perfect....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 I'm struggling with 10 man Ardboy units right now, I think I just prefer Gore-gruntas at this moment in time. Not only are they a bit cheaper (which adds up when talking multiple units) but their speed does go some way to make up for the loss of Rampaging Destroyers and allows you some better movement if you choose to fly without the Ironfist. For me I think perhaps Ardboys are becoming a 30 or nothing slot. Granted, I have not played with 30 yet (a lot of painting to do before I get to that!) and tbh haven't played enough for my thoughts on the 10 man unit to be anything other than idle speculation at this point! But yeh, that's where my mind is at when I'm endlessly scribbling down lists right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I've been toying with this list. After Fury of Gork I'm a big fan of the Fist of Gork himself and his command ability is great. The list is probably a bit one trick, but sensible deployment and placing should allow me to maximumise its effect (especially for the Gore Gruntas). I'm thinking the Megaboss and Grots (I also had a spare 100pts) for some back field protection against all those pesky teleporting armies that are knocking about these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 After playing with 20 Grots myself I found them to be a bit underwhelming at that number. Ironically I was far more impressed with with the Gitmob Shaman, having the unbinding and ability to spam mystic shield on my Ardboyz without inflicting mortal wounds was so good. Seriously the MW part of the Weirdnob Shaman makes him such garbage for his points. I think if you are running 20 Grots then inspiring presence on them is going to be mandatory to make them stand against anything otherwise you just get battle-shocked into the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 @Ollie Grimwood - Gitmob Grots are ace. They move amazingly fast as well so can reform wherever you need them and even surge forward behind the Brutes Really interested to see if Gordrakk can make a come-back. Do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Malakree said: After playing with 20 Grots myself I found them to be a bit underwhelming at that number. Ironically I was far more impressed with with the Gitmob Shaman, having the unbinding and ability to spam mystic shield on my Ardboyz without inflicting mortal wounds was so good. Seriously the MW part of the Weirdnob Shaman makes him such garbage for his points. I think if you are running 20 Grots then inspiring presence on them is going to be mandatory to make them stand against anything otherwise you just get battle-shocked into the floor. I used 2x20 Gitmob at the weekend and they were ace for me. Had them both ringed around an objective next to some Inspiring, reaching the dizzy heights of Bravery 8! They absolutely begin to capitulate quick under pressure, but the idea is they're there first and foremost to claim, whilst Ironjawz (proper) do the hard liftin' I did run a Gitmob shaman in one game, but he got pinged off with one T1 shot.... so can't report on him to be fair! Used a Moonclan Shaman a few weeks back though and he was ace, the mushroom +2 is wonderful. The Gitmob probably edges it though as he gets that wolf to fly round on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Fungrim said: I used 2x20 Gitmob at the weekend and they were ace for me. Had them both ringed around an objective next to some Inspiring, reaching the dizzy heights of Bravery 8! They absolutely begin to capitulate quick under pressure, but the idea is they're there first and foremost to claim, whilst Ironjawz (proper) do the hard liftin' That what I was thinking, they're just there to capture or maybe slow a unit down for a turn or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 @Fungrim I've run out of likes but I very much appreciate your replies. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said: @Fungrim I've run out of likes but I very much appreciate your replies. Thank you. Haha! that's alright, I'll survive (just...) Look forward to hearing if you try Gordrakk out. Just tried to make a list with Gordrakk *and* a standard Maw-K in it. It got silly and I gave up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Fungrim said: Haha! that's alright, I'll survive (just...) Look forward to hearing if you try Gordrakk out. Just tried to make a list with Gordrakk *and* a standard Maw-K in it. It got silly and I gave up... @Ollie GrimwoodI second this, on paper he just seems meh for his buck. I'd be interested in hearing his prformance practically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 @Fungrim & @Lysandestolpe I will gladly update, might be a while I've not finished building Gordrakk ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 One question I asked GW to FAQ is the interaction between Gordrakk and the brutefist. Seems like it could be a way to use MSU to sling down some MW before the fight even starts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Malakree said: One question I asked GW to FAQ is the interaction between Gordrakk and the brutefist. Seems like it could be a way to use MSU to sling down some MW before the fight even starts! You mean his command ability working with the hero phase charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Malakithe said: You mean his command ability working with the hero phase charge? Aye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, Malakree said: Aye What did you want to know? Im guessing the part of his CA wording about the 'charge phase' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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