Planar Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 20 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said: I think it would be cool. Unfortunately, unless my memory fails me, Ironjawz cannot take Spiderfang Grots as allies. (will reply to some of the other posts later/tomorrow) I see know that you right. I was pretty sure they were listed as potential allies. Wishful thinking, I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron_Bathory Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 10 hours ago, Planar said: Has anyone considered /used the Arachnaroc (and friends) as potential IJ allies ? Could help with spells and mortal wounds both things the IJ lack. What do you think? I REALLY wanted to do this. Arachnarok fills the much needed second behemoth slot next to the MK and fills your wizard slot at the same time. I automatically assumed they would be allies and included in my list. Then I said to myself, "just for fun I'm gonna check to make sure this is legal". I was already bummed that I couldn't take a Huskard, when I saw this my jaw dropped. Was certain they'd be able to ally with all Greenskin units. Feels bad man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 52 minutes ago, Baron_Bathory said: I REALLY wanted to do this. Arachnarok fills the much needed second behemoth slot next to the MK and fills your wizard slot at the same time. I automatically assumed they would be allies and included in my list. Then I said to myself, "just for fun I'm gonna check to make sure this is legal". I was already bummed that I couldn't take a Huskard, when I saw this my jaw dropped. Was certain they'd be able to ally with all Greenskin units. Feels bad man Gargants man..very efficient for the points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 6 hours ago, Malakithe said: Gargants man..very efficient for the points Until you try to charge things.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 15 minutes ago, kozokus said: Until you try to charge things.... And? They can charge things just as well or not well as anything else...they can put out some good hurt, and will be a huge target/distraction. My current list runs 2 Gargants plus a MK then Brutes...target saturation that will make your opponent really have think carefully about what to shoot when your line is stomping forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Malakithe said: And? They can charge things just as well or not well as anything else...they can put out some good hurt, and will be a huge target/distraction. My current list runs 2 Gargants plus a MK then Brutes...target saturation that will make your opponent really have think carefully about what to shoot when your line is stomping forward But Il they roll double they cannot charge. That's what @kozokus is getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Don't mistake me i really like giants, because GIANT! and because 3D6 attacks and eadbutts! What i don't like is that they have a flat 1/6 chance of failing any charge, on any double they make. I don't have the math in head but from what i remember it is hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 minute ago, kozokus said: Don't mistake me i really like giants, because GIANT! and because 3D6 attacks and eadbutts! What i don't like is that they have a flat 1/6 chance of failing any charge, on any double they make. I don't have the math in head but from what i remember it is hard. Yeah I can see the downside to that. But still my purpose of them with Ironjawz is to be a arrow magnet. To force the opponent to think carefully about either shooting a MK flying at you, a unit of 10 Brutes about to slam into your line, or one of 2 Gargants coming at the flanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Malakithe said: Yeah I can see the downside to that. But still my purpose of them with Ironjawz is to be a arrow magnet. To force the opponent to think carefully about either shooting a MK flying at you, a unit of 10 Brutes about to slam into your line, or one of 2 Gargants coming at the flanks My worry with this is the 5+ save here. On that save, even with 12 wounds, he's going down quick. Which means you have to put Mystic on him, which means your MK doesn't have Mystic.... Again, as @kozokus said , don't get me wrong, I love a good gargant, I'm trying one out at the weekend (so will be better informed to comment) - but from a purely warscroll point of view, it feels like if he actually survived the sprint across the board, by the time he gets into the opponent's lines, he'll be closing on useless. Which to be fair, makes double gargant sound appealing... but I'm not sure if that's an efficient use of ally points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Their profile degrades pretty quickly as they take wounds. They also dish out very few mortal wounds - and those few are almost as likely to damage you as your opponent. I own a couple and I do like them, but more from a fun point of view. I'm not sure they help us out an awful lot in the matchups we struggle with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I've used Gargants quite a lot pre the first GHB and they are pretty good and fun to play with, they drop levels really fast and the 5+ save is naff though. However the main reason I used them was for the Black orc big mob where they benefited from +1 to wound and so became significantly better. Ive not used them since GHB landed a) because it would have broken the IJ allegience and one of the strengths of IJ is all our units are battleline, and b) because 5 brutes do a similar amount of damage have more wounds, don't give any disadvantages to charge and while slower could be made faster with Destruction move and ironfst. So pre GHB2017 Gargants were out! Now in the new world, one of the most exciting things I thought before I got my hands on GHB2017 was the rumour of allies and in particular Gargants. However I feel the Brutes are now even stronger that Gargants, because of the new synergies in IJ in fact aside from a few key choices I'm beginning to wonder if allies in general could be a bad choice for Ironjawz outside of fun choices. The Troggoth Hag, Collosal Cave Squig, Mangler Squig, Spear chukas (and other engines of war), have their place. I'd even consider the 2 Incarnate elements as well as they seem good value for their cost. the Rogue Idol for me is probably a bit too expensive. The main thinking I'm having is along these lines: Bravery buffs & the (mighty) Waaaaaagh! with new bravery upgrade tools, the reliance on a single Inspiring presence is diminished, in fact aside from multi 10 man brute squads or those combined with a 30 man Ardboyz unit (so bestial Charisma becomes a must have) I'm leaning towards the Waagh and mighty waagh as becoming a staple for Ironjawz. If your going to be using your Waagh every turn you need 2 things, ironjawz units to make the roll more successful (so 6 is optimal) and ironjawz units to benefit from the +1 attack (or +2 if your lucky). Therefore allies become less welcome because they do not assist nor benefit from the Waagh. I stretch this thinking out to Grot shamans as well, yes they give you a cheaper mystic shield, but the Weirdnob is more consistent (+1 or +2 to cast) and contributes to the Waagh, a Troggoth Hag however gives you something else as well as magic (shooting, tanky and a bit fighty) so still warrants consideration (as an example of a good ally) Waaaaagh and Smashin & Bashin: Smashin & Bashin is potentially one of the strongest alllegience abilities in the game. With the right set up you can complete some or all of your important combats and take no damage in return. Sounds simple but think about what that means and what IJ "do" or more accurately"How we win" we fight Almost all of our offensive power is based upon multi wound multi attack models in close combat. Here is a simple example our Mawkrusha charges a knight Azyros let's say does 4 mortal wounds for destructive bulk so the knight has a single wound left. Your 10 brutes charge 10 retributors. Normally you go with Brutes and maybe kill 4 Paladins. The azyros goes next and on average will do 1 wound (no buffs either side) you murder the Azyros and then the Paladins assault the brutes, and kill 3-4 on average (All sounds familiar) now let's change this up. Your Mawkrusha goes first, kills azyros, gains a wound and an attack, then brutes go and kill 4 Paladins, 1 wound is massive on the Mawkrusha even though it seems insignificant, as the game goes on losing 4 wounds means your mighty fists are worse your move, your destructive bulk AND your strength from victory does not stop you dropping levels as the wording on the warscroll for each level is "Wounds suffered" strength from victory just adds one wound to your profile. So every wound counts! Extrapolate that with the increased use of the Waaagh as above, your 10 brutes kill on about average 5 Paladins, (6 if you get +2 attacks) this should mean you lose only 2 or 3 brutes in return (at worst 1 or 2 more from battleshock if you are really unlucky) So you have saved 1 wound on the Mawkrusha and maybe kept 2-4 more brutes alive and have in return wasted the opponents strongest troops. With battleshock (please, ladies and gentlemen put your hands together for The Boss Skewer....) as well could wipe the unit out or totally decimate it. Potentially killin or neutering 25% if the opponents army at the cost of only a couple of brutes. This is not to say that allies are not any good, but I am starting to see their inclusion as diluting the overall power of a ironjawz list so they need to really add something in compensation for that. For example spear chukkas give you that long range snipe at the cost of 120-360 (so at its highest 10 brutes). Brutes win games for sure but that long range threat is potentially against some lists going to win you games, but you have to remember your giving up 30 wounds of muscle along with 2 gorehackas and a boss Klaw.... a troggoth hag at 360 is costly but as we are rapidly discovering a source of mystic shield along with ironclad on the Mawkrusha has catapulted his power, so she takes up a space of a Weirdnob. So really your losing 240 points (Warchanter and ironfist maybe?) your army is slower, you lose an artifact, 2 characters for 1, reliability of picking first turn, less consistent mystic shield, the Hail Mary of a foot of Gork, and frenzy from chanter, and 2 ironjawz units for the purposes of waaaagh. but your gaining a very survivable tanky piece, with a good shooting attack, better combat more wounds on the table, different debuff spell and threat to enemy casters. Overall a trade that could make sense, or maybe you would rather keep the formation and characters and just lose 10 brutes, either way there is a decent case for her, but not auto include. To really illustrate the points though what do you really gain (outside of fun) for swapping in a Gargant for 5 brutes unless you only have 170pts left..... if the Gargants could have the ironjawz key word then it would be worthwhile I think as they are very similar in damage output and wounds so would trigger all the allegience and command abilities but as they don't for the highest competitive list I can't see my Bojangles stomping back into my lists sadly :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Hmm...got some thinking to do now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 @Sangfroid - Great post Kieran. Very interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planar Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Agreed, Gargants might not be a sold choice for competitive play. But then only for that slim chance to see the expression of your SE opponent when you "Stuff ’In Me Bag" his last retributor, the drunken ****** worths every single of its 170 points Stuff ’Em In Me Pants we call it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Planar said: Stuff ’Em In Me Pants we call it... Back in WFB, I'm pretty sure this was actually implied in the Giant rules haha!! I think Kieran's logic is pretty watertight, but yeh you will get the occasional epic story from a Gargant! Good fun as agreed by all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planar Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said: Back in WFB, I'm pretty sure this was actually implied in the Giant rules haha!! Yeah probably that's where we got it from! We haven't played since 5th ed till we returned to AoS a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysandestolpe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 @Sangfroid - I second Chris, that is a phenomenal argument against why it's so hard to allocate points to ironjawz. If the synergy of Ironjawz fail, that's when the real uphill begins. Competatively, I wouldn't go outside of ironjawz. We need that grunta megaboss and baby mawcrushas like... now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Planar said: Agreed, Gargants might not be a sold choice for competitive play. But then only for that slim chance to see the expression of your SE opponent when you "Stuff ’In Me Bag" his last retributor, the drunken ****** worths every single of its 170 points Stuff ’Em In Me Pants we call it... Yeah I could work. I was thinking for banner bearers. Snatch up those Death banner bearer guys or daemon banner guys or musicians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, Malakithe said: Yeah I could work. I was thinking for banner bearers. Snatch up those Death banner bearer guys or daemon banner guys or musicians Is that a banner pole down your pants or are you just pleased to see me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungrim Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 My head is all over the place from list contemplation.... and sexual tension.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunkhouseBuster Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Sangfroid said: Now in the new world, one of the most exciting things I thought before I got my hands on GHB2017 was the rumour of allies and in particular Gargants. However I feel the Brutes are now even stronger that Gargants, because of the new synergies in IJ in fact aside from a few key choices I'm beginning to wonder if allies in general could be a bad choice for Ironjawz outside of fun choices. The Troggoth Hag, Collosal Cave Squig, Mangler Squig, Spear chukas (and other engines of war), have their place. I'd even consider the 2 Incarnate elements as well as they seem good value for their cost. the Rogue Idol for me is probably a bit too expensive. ... Smashin & Bashin is potentially one of the strongest alllegience abilities in the game. With the right set up you can complete some or all of your important combats and take no damage in return. Sounds simple but think about what that means and what IJ "do" or more accurately"How we win" we fight This was basically my thoughts last week when I started reading the GH2017 in earnest. Sure, Allies are really cool and can buff up an army and fill in weaknesses, but is it really necessary? As you mentioned, with how easy it is now to improve Bravery and Battleshock with Artifacts and the new Battalions, Waaagh and Mighty Waaagh Command Abilities become much more tempting. Speaking as someone who used Waaagh a lot more than Inspiring Presence over the past year, I can tell you that it is an awesome ability Sure, we can throw in a Troggoth Hag for a big nasty Wizard that can do some cool things. Sure, we can get some Grots to help shoot things far away. I for one know how awesome a Gargant can be in a game - the GH2017 ended up making my list Matched Play legal - and how it is awesome to see a Gargant wipe out an the enemy that defeated it! But where does that leave the Ironjawz part of the army? With less Boyz on the field, that's where. As cool as it is to have Allies, I also think that the Ironjawz might be better off without them in order to get the most out of their abilities. I mean, 400 points gets you another 10 Brutes, or 6 Gore-gruntas and a Warchanter, or almost a whole 'nuther Maw-Crusha, or 5 Warchanters, or a bunch of Ardboys. See where I'm going with this? I'm going to borrow a phrase from our 41st Millennium kinfolk: "MORE BOYZ!" Ironjawz might be bigger and tougher than other Orks, but they are still Orks through and through. Synergies flow between the units, and no other unit can, in my opinion, truly beat Ironjawz, point for point (except pure Khorne armies, but then it's a proper fight!). Let me ask my Megaboss what he thinks about not taking Allies... "Oy, wot's dis? Of course I's rather be takin' more Boyz den uvver gits. I ain't gonna say no to uvver gits joinin' Da Waaagh, uv course. But if'n I had to choose, I's be choosin' da propa Orks first. Waaagh! Now go and gets me Maw-Crusha ready fer fightin'!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaboss Gorstag Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Hi all! Have a 2k tournament in 2 weeks I was thinking of running this list MB on Maw-krusha 2 x MB on foot. 1x grot shaman (ally) 10 Brutes Hackas 3 X 5 Brutes twin choppas And 2 x 3 Gore gruntas. That's 2k even I think Ironclad +boss skewer or Gold toof maybe my preference of items traits. I keep tossing up dropping something to squeeze in an ironfist for a 2nd relic. And some drop control. Any tips, suggestions would be welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 @Megaboss Gorstag - Hello and welcome to TGA. Great place to start with your first post Nice list, though I'm not sure what the two Megabosses on foot are offering? Without a battalion you won't be able to boost them with tasty artefacts so I fear they will be underwhelming. I'm actually planning on running an incredibly similar build at the Facehammer GT in just less than 2 weeks! I don't have either Megaboss or the Grot Shaman, instead I have a Weirdnob Shaman and a pair of Gitmob Spear Chukkas. Say what you will about the reliability of the Grot war machines, but I believe they offer a much greater threat than the slow foot 'bosses. Which event are you at? Be sure to let us know how you get on...I'd love to be proved wrong about the Megabosses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaboss Gorstag Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 @Chris Tomlin Crucible in Orlando! I have a 3rd set of Gore Gruntas I can swap for one of the bosses. I don't think the foot bosses will be stellar. But if not running an Ironfist they won't be so badly out paced by the Brutes anymore. May actually get to use the reroll 1's to hit aura on the large chaff units we are bound to see now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, Megaboss Gorstag said: @Chris Tomlin Crucible in Orlando! I have a 3rd set of Gore Gruntas I can swap for one of the bosses. I don't think the foot bosses will be stellar. But if not running an Ironfist they won't be so badly out paced by the Brutes anymore. May actually get to use the reroll 1's to hit aura on the large chaff units we are bound to see now. Well Orlando certainly beats Stockport!! Have you considered an Ironfist? Whilst it is now arguably more important to us, it's also a real toss up IMO as you do lose a whole unit for it. Personally in your build I think a 3rd unit of Gruntas over the 2nd Megaboss might be a better call. Allows for some more flexibility and speed without an Ironfist. I agree getting the rerolls on the Brutes will be nice though. Either way though, I do see some viability in the no Battalion build. Interested in how we get on. For your sakes I hope your meta is somewhat more gentle than mine (ie less Tzeentch!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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