GH2017 - Ironjawz Review & Discussion

[Fungrim]

Is Ironclad the way people are moving now? Have to admit I've been struggling for gametime recently so haven't had chance to properly test it (only had 1(!) game under GHB2)

I assumed Bestial Charisma was the go-to for that Inspiring Presence blanket? Seemed too good to pass up, especially with lots of Brutes on the table, and the fact you can give it to allies too.

I think if I was trying to tank up my Mawkrusha it would have to be via an artefact? But to be honest the offensive artefacts are far more appealing. As I say I won't know until I get some more games in, but I can see my Maw being largely a heavy-hitting Hail Mary from now on (which is a bit worrying considering the hero-light lists I've been writing...

This has also led me to  really want to squeeze in that second cabbage........

[Chris Tomlin]

6 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

Is Ironclad the way people are moving now?

I don't think anything is set in stone at present, but I am certainly enjoying the added survivability afforded by Ironclad. Really makes the Maw-krusha a super threat (wait until my report of my game yesterday with @Paul Buckler!).

I too think that Bestial Charisma will 100% have a place in some builds, but at present I'm more inclined to consider an MSU approach where actually the Mighty Waaagh! has a place for the first time in....well, forever!!

I can also see people making use of Brutish Cunning for some absolutely epic stories. I ran that on Saturday in a 7 game Path to Glory campaign (which I'll report on in my thread) and it's undoubtedly cool, but it's just totally unreliable.

I think they the top 3 it'd be fair to say.

The artefacts are super interesting as you could make a solid argument for any of them I reckon...ie does Ironclad + Boss Skewer do a good enough job of protecting your General and supporting your troops? Potential doesn't it! There are a lot of combos to be tried out. Ultimately the Daubing Dabbing of Mork probably isn't the best, but I'm having some fun with it at present!

[BunkhouseBuster]

18 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

...at 500 points.

Is how that sentence should finish!  
I don't doubt he would do solid work there and eventually get stuck in for sure, same with 1,000pts and other smaller games.

My problem with him is at 2,000pts. He is slower now without the old Rampaging Destroyers (yeh I know he can go 6" potentially, but I'm not sure how often that'll come into play, I suspect there will be better options) and the lack of Battlebrew really hurts. It was those two things that made him viable in the original General's Handbook. Before that he suffered the problems he does now.

Ironclad is superb, but anyone putting that on him and not a Maw-krusha (again, talking 2k) needs their head looking at! I suspect Destroyer goes some way to mitigate the lack of Battlebrew (I'm sure a maths type can run those numbers...I'd be interested to take a look) and of course there will be times where you squeeze through 15-18 damage, but I think he is far less reliable now.

As mentioned above though, this is early doors and all opinions are subject to change as games are played for sure! Also cool if people are finding different things good.

Well, that was in the next sentence   My problem is that I have a limited budget on what models I can grab anymore.  If it weren't for that Ironjawz bundle last year that had the Gargant in it, I would be stuck playing small games.  I mean, I just this week grabbed a Maw-Crusha!  I have played a bunch of games at around the 1500 to 1800 point range, and I have had at least one or two Megabosses in those games and they do well for me even at those point ranges.   Granted, I don't face many shooting-heavy armies, just a player with lots of Seraphon Skinks.  The few times I have worried about what I'm facing, it's about target priority.

I would use one Megaboss as the General, and he would stay next to a Brute Squad, and they would focus on going after enemy heroes.  The second Megaboss would go with two other Brute Squads, and they would go after any target they felt like, but I would send them after large monsters first if I faced any.  It has worked pretty well for me, but that was back with Battle Brew buffing them up and making their attacks that much more reliable.  Even so, in my experience, a Megaboss on foot is probably the best melee Hero that is not on a monster or mount of some kind.  Sure, he needs to survive, but once he is engaged, he can bash his way through enemy heroes, which is how I try to use both of them.

In larger games without Battle Brew?  I have no idea how it will go.  I'm just sharing my experiences and the awesomeness of the Ironjawz

Next stop, getting my Maw-Crusha built up (and getting my step-daughter's Death army assembled for her, but that's another thread!).

 

26 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

Is Ironclad the way people are moving now? Have to admit I've been struggling for gametime recently so haven't had chance to properly test it (only had 1(!) game under GHB2)

To me, I like a more MSU approach to Ironjawz.  I played one game where I ran 6 Gore-gruntas as a single unit to decent effect, but I am more fond of a MSU approach, and I think that might be the way to deal with a potential Horde heavy "meta".

 

[Chris Tomlin]

@BunkhouseBuster - To be clear, I am in no way trying to belittle or devalue smaller games. Whilst the dynamics change (due to the availability of certain models at those size games), they still serve as valuable experience. One of the beauties of AoS is how well it scales IMO.

Be it 500, 1000, 2000, Skirmish, Path to Glory etc, you still feel like you are playing AoS and the lessons learnt are transferable, which isn't always the case with games (WFB did this no where near as well).

I thoroughly enjoy some of the smaller campaign style ways to play (Skirmish and just recently Path to Glory) and fully count them as games of AoS.

A bit off topic but I didn't want to appear snobbish or dismissive of anything that isn't 2,000 points Matched Play

Also; super exciting you got your Maw-krusha! It's a fantastic kit. Even having used mine in over 100 games I still love just picking him up and admiring the sculpt. Enjoy.

[BunkhouseBuster]

4 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

@BunkhouseBuster - To be clear, I am in no way trying to belittle or devalue smaller games.

...

A bit off topic but I didn't want to appear snobbish or dismissive of anything that isn't 2,000 points Matched Play

No worries!  I never thought you were being snobbish at all.  Having read your posts over the past few months, I don't think you are capable of being truly snobbish about anything in the game. I was just emphasizing my enthusiasm for what has worked in my experiences.  I'll be sure to put a big ol' YMMV on it next time

6 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Also; super exciting you got your Maw-krusha! It's a fantastic kit. Even having used mine in over 100 games I still love just picking him up and admiring the sculpt. Enjoy.

MY only issue is the color scheme - with red armor and bluish-green skin on my Ironjawz, the dilemma of what color to use for the Maw-Crusha is one that needs to be dealt with.  Perhaps a green or bright yellow...  Or a black with some grey trim....  Hm....

In any case, I'll start getting back into taking pictures and sharing them

[Fungrim]

37 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I too think that Bestial Charisma will 100% have a place in some builds, but at present I'm more inclined to consider an MSU approach where actually the Mighty Waaagh! has a place for the first time in....well, forever!!

My take-away: I need to buy more Brutes.......

[Sig]

29 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

Well, that was in the next sentence   My problem is that I have a limited budget on what models I can grab anymore.  If it weren't for that Ironjawz bundle last year that had the Gargant in it, I would be stuck playing small games.  I mean, I just this week grabbed a Maw-Crusha!  I have played a bunch of games at around the 1500 to 1800 point range, and I have had at least one or two Megabosses in those games and they do well for me even at those point ranges.   Granted, I don't face many shooting-heavy armies, just a player with lots of Seraphon Skinks.  The few times I have worried about what I'm facing, it's about target priority.

I would use one Megaboss as the General, and he would stay next to a Brute Squad, and they would focus on going after enemy heroes.  The second Megaboss would go with two other Brute Squads, and they would go after any target they felt like, but I would send them after large monsters first if I faced any.  It has worked pretty well for me, but that was back with Battle Brew buffing them up and making their attacks that much more reliable.  Even so, in my experience, a Megaboss on foot is probably the best melee Hero that is not on a monster or mount of some kind.  Sure, he needs to survive, but once he is engaged, he can bash his way through enemy heroes, which is how I try to use both of them.

In larger games without Battle Brew?  I have no idea how it will go.  I'm just sharing my experiences and the awesomeness of the Ironjawz

Next stop, getting my Maw-Crusha built up (and getting my step-daughter's Death army assembled for her, but that's another thread!).

 

To me, I like a more MSU approach to Ironjawz.  I played one game where I ran 6 Gore-gruntas as a single unit to decent effect, but I am more fond of a MSU approach, and I think that might be the way to deal with a potential Horde heavy "meta".

 

Sorry, but what is the meaning of MSU ?

 

[Chris Tomlin]

6 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

No worries!  I never thought you were being snobbish at all.  Having read your posts over the past few months, I don't think you are capable of being truly snobbish about anything in the game. I was just emphasizing my enthusiasm for what has worked in my experiences.  I'll be sure to put a big ol' YMMV on it next time

MY only issue is the color scheme - with red armor and bluish-green skin on my Ironjawz, the dilemma of what color to use for the Maw-Crusha is one that needs to be dealt with.  Perhaps a green or bright yellow...  Or a black with some grey trim....  Hm....

In any case, I'll start getting back into taking pictures and sharing them

All good! I sometimes worry the tone in which people read posts. Text isn't always the best media for a conversation eh? It's the best we have though...not sure I could get away with a permanent Ironjawz Skype conference call all day every day at work!! If anyone is hiring for such a role though, I'm your Megaboss  

If people are enthusiastic about the games that they are playing, then we are likely to have some good exchanges here I would think.

Regarding your Maw-krusha, off the top of my head I would think green would be the colour of choice?

6 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

My take-away: I need to buy more Brutes.......

Always the answer! I have 31 painted, but assembled 3 more last night. I only have 2x5 with Choppas and think I want to run 3x5 with Choppas at Facehammer GT. To save time I figured I'd just paint 3 more regular Brutes as I have an abundance of Bosses and Gore-choppas!

[BunkhouseBuster]

1 minute ago, Sig said:

Sorry, but what is the meaning of MSU ?

Multiple Small Units.  Taking several smaller squads rather than a few large blocks of models.  It gives you a degree of flexibility in positioning and safety against certain strategies.

[Chris Tomlin]

4 minutes ago, Sig said:

Sorry, but what is the meaning of MSU ?

Multiple Small Units - in the case of Ironjawz this typically means running 4 or 5 units of 5 Brutes with some Gore-grunta support  

Ninja'd by @BunkhouseBuster 

[Sig]

3 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

Multiple Small Units.  Taking several smaller squads rather than a few large blocks of models.  It gives you a degree of flexibility in positioning and safety against certain strategies.

Ok thx

[Sig]

4 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Multiple Small Units - in the case of Ironjawz this typically means running 4 or 5 units of 5 Brutes with some Gore-grunta support  

I like that ?

[Malakithe]

8 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Always the answer! I have 31 painted, but assembled 3 more last night. I only have 2x5 with Choppas and think I want to run 3x5 with Choppas at Facehammer GT. To save time I figured I'd just paint 3 more regular Brutes as I have an abundance of Bosses and Gore-choppas!

Whats your list looking like for that so far? Any allies?

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

I just bought five more last week as well. That will bring me up to 20xBrutes all-together, with 10xChoppas and 10xHakkas. As others have said, MSU seems to be the way to go for Ironjawz atm. I had some fun with Brutal Cunning recently and charged my megaboss into a unit of Retributors, nearly wiping them out. However, that will probably stay for the smaller games (500-1.5k). I am going to test out Bestial Charisma and Boss Skewer in my next 2000 match with the MSU strategy 

[Lysandestolpe]

My 2k list I'm running is exactly the same as pre-GH17 minus the megaboss on foot and instead use Goldtoof battalion... oops sorry, I mean, hrm, bloodtoof ?

Maw crusha

weirdnob

chanter

2x5 brutes

10 brutes

10 ardboyz

3 gruntas

ironfist 

gooldtoof 

 

with boss skewer on chanter it gives most of the army bravery 9, 11 for ardboyz in combat. This allows for ironclad on crusher, which as stated above by several makes him a real nasty thing distracting your opponent from shooting out boss skewer and aim a lot at the crusher. Idk know if that's good or bad, but it seems weirnob is more of a target than chanter since he casts mystic shield on either crusher or something else. I also keep the chanter in cover best I can as well. 

[Chris Tomlin]

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Whats your list looking like for that so far? Any allies?

I think I'll try this for FHGT, but it's 100% subject to change. I expect me and @Sangfroid will have some text exchanges next week leading up to the event;

Maw-Krusha - General, Ironclad, Daubing (or something else)
Weirdnob

10 Brutes - Hackas
5 Brutes - Choppas
5 Brutes - Choppas
5 Brutes - Choppas
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

I still have some painting to do for this (Spear Chukkas and 3 choppa Brutes). There's a chance I'll drop 5 Brutes for an Ironfist. Problem is that I haven't played anywhere near as many games as I'd like at this point. So I'm by no means suggesting that I think this is an optimal build or anything, really just finding my feet like the rest of you guys. Seems super light on characters which could be a problem, but it is fun having so many units on the board.

1 hour ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

I am going to test out Bestial Charisma and Boss Skewer in my next 2000 match with the MSU strategy 

Very interested to hear how this combo pans out. Looks great on paper and deals with a lot of my previous issues with Ironjawz. Be sure to let us know how you get on.

20 Brutes is a good baseline for a collection IMO.

@Lysandestolpe - That is a pretty decent Bloodtoofs build I think. I have to say, I'm not sure how I feel about 10 Ardboys at present. I think I'd prefer 5 more Brutes or potentially even a 2nd unit of Gruntas!

[Malakithe]

8 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I think I'll try this for FHGT, but it's 100% subject to change. I expect me and @Sangfroid will have some text exchanges next week leading up to the event;

Maw-Krusha - General, Ironclad, Daubing (or something else)
Weirdnob

10 Brutes - Hackas
5 Brutes - Choppas
5 Brutes - Choppas
5 Brutes - Choppas
3 Gore-gruntas
3 Gore-gruntas

Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

I still have some painting to do for this (Spear Chukkas and 3 choppa Brutes). There's a chance I'll drop 5 Brutes for an Ironfist. Problem is that I haven't played anywhere near as many games as I'd like at this point. So I'm by no means suggesting that I think this is an optimal build or anything, really just finding my feet like the rest of you guys. Seems super light on characters which could be a problem, but it is fun having so many units on the board.

 

Im not sold on the Spear Chukka's. Hitting on 4s even with re-roll from a battery still isnt reliable enough to spend the points on. From all the reports ive read/seen they have been lack luster at best

[Chris Tomlin]

28 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Im not sold on the Spear Chukka's. Hitting on 4s even with re-roll from a battery still isnt reliable enough to spend the points on. From all the reports ive read/seen they have been lack luster at best

Yeh I have heard people suggest similar, but it mostly seems to be anecdotal or theory. Which reports have you read/seen out of interest? I would suspect that poor target selection probably adds weight to these kind of opinions.

I'd rather get them on the table and give them a fair run to establish their usefulness (or lack thereof!) myself. They undoubtedly offer a different kind of threat and when doing their most valuable work will be hitting on 3+ anyway.

I do feel that 240 points is a lot for sure and definitely could be spent elsewhere, potentially to better use. We'll see how I feel post Facehammer GT. The jury is still out for me, but I feel their potential warrants some experimentation.

[Malakithe]

Oh just scattered reports here and there on these forums and facebook mostly

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

48 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Im not sold on the Spear Chukka's. Hitting on 4s even with re-roll from a battery still isnt reliable enough to spend the points on. From all the reports ive read/seen they have been lack luster at best

I think they're great and are a useful option for Ironjawz, providing heavy long-range support. Don't forget, they gain +1 to hit if shooting a hero. That means, you'd get:

Four Attacks with a 3+ rerollable to hit, 3+ to wound, -2 Rend, D3 Damage, all at '36 range

Because of that rule, character hunting is what Chukkas should be used for in a competitive game. You need two chukkas in order to reroll failed hits, and it is costly at 240, but this allows us to snipe against armies with those intricate support heroes (Bloodsecrators, Aether Khemists, Ghoul King) and even chip away at heroes on monsters as well. I was able to kill an Old Blood on a Carnisour after shooting at it most of the game, but it was severely weakened and practically useless halfway through as the match turned in my favor

[Malakithe]

1 minute ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

I think they're great and are a useful option for Ironjawz, providing heavy long-range support. Don't forget, they gain +1 to hit if shooting a hero. That means, you'd get:

Four Attacks with a 3+ rerollable to hit, 3+ to wound, -2 Rend, D3 Damage, all at '36 range

Because of that rule, character hunting is what Chukkas should be used for in a competitive game. You need two chukkas in order to reroll failed hits, and it is costly at 240, but this allows us to snipe against armies with those intricate support heroes (Bloodsecrators, Aether Khemists, Ghoul King) and even chip away at heroes on monsters as well. I was able to kill an Old Blood on a Carnisour after shooting at it most of the game, but it was severely weakened and practically useless halfway through as the match turned in my favor

Yes thats true but they problem is you said D3 dmg...not D3 mortal wounds or 2 dmg...with 2 Spear Chukka's you might be able to plink off 2 wounds on a hero...for 240pts thats not reliable enough by a long stretch, range or not

[Fungrim]

I know a chap who is notorious for his powerful lists and optimal play style, he recently lost out to an Ironjawz list with 4 Rock Lobbers...

Number of factors at play (details of which I'm not privy to!) but the artillery battery definitely played a big part.

 

That's why I'm taking 1 RL at the moment, at full crew it's 3+ 3+ (so above 50% chance I'm getting it through), and if it wounds, it's more than likely doing the 3 damage, as -2 rend is taking out most saves. I think even 1 solitary RL (or Spear Chukka if you're going for gunning for heroes), might be enough to knock off that low-wound character, or reduce that unit below buffing capacity, or indeed, knock the opponent's artillery down a peg.

 

Again though, we all need to get out there and play-test! Maybe we can start a communal feedback thread, whereby people can post short battle-reps and reviews of key units?

[Lysandestolpe]

2 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

 

@Lysandestolpe - That is a pretty decent Bloodtoofs build I think. I have to say, I'm not sure how I feel about 10 Ardboys at present. I think I'd prefer 5 more Brutes or potentially even a 2nd unit of Gruntas!

Well, most of the games, and I assume more now, no allies such a spear chuckas or similar shooting have made me more dependent on letting my opponent go first. Which has also led to when I am up against something that thinks similarly, they win the roll and throw me first in line, giving them the opportunity to combat this. 

What ive done to eliminate this issue is to line up the ardboyz on a string in front of my 10 brutes, then all leaders within 6" of that unit, which isn't hard to do considering it's a pretty long string. This gives me a descent chance to they rampaging destroyer move off. Which is 6" plus ironfist plus 4 + charge + 4. It definitely is a nice first turn charge if rolls come my way. If not, well I have a bubble wrap unit my khorne, or other units have to take out and allows my brutes to get the charge on my terms. In addition, it doesn't prevent me from moving all my units up on that first turn, should I be "blessed" with it. The ardboyz with mystic shield and shields can endure more than I feel brutes can. It also is a good unit to keep the we riding behind for a buff. 

The charge above can ofcourse be SE be placed on brutes and in is case, the ardboyz would be in the way. I to to find that when I play less on throwing everything across the board and hope that my save rolls go well, my games have a much better outcome. 

Another reason I do take 10 ardboys is for the sheer fact they are amazing at hugging objectives with mystic shield. I won two games on Nova and didn't lose too hard in 2 other games (closer to draw than complete loss) because of that combo. In the end, most missions require objective points to win. And 20 wounds with some shields and a 3+ or 2+ in cover - save that ignores wounds on 6 is god sent to our army. But that's my experience and opinion.  I'm sure others have different opinions. 

But the most important reason: they look cool amongst the gruntas and brutes. 

[Planar]

Has anyone considered /used the Arachnaroc (and friends) as potential IJ allies ? Could help with spells and mortal wounds both things the IJ lack.  What do you think?

[Chris Tomlin]

24 minutes ago, Planar said:

Has anyone considered /used the Arachnaroc (and friends) as potential IJ allies ? Could help with spells and mortal wounds both things the IJ lack.  What do you think?

I think it would be cool. Unfortunately, unless my memory fails me, Ironjawz cannot take Spiderfang Grots as allies.

(will reply to some of the other posts later/tomorrow)