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Chris Tomlin

GH2017 - Ironjawz Review & Discussion

452 posts in this topic

Malakree    61

I think the big question now is whether or not we take battalions, which personally I'm weighing with regards to the artefact. If I can't use it then I really lower the value of the battalion. Honestly I think our battalions are right on the cusp of being bad.

21 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Its kind of difficult to come up with a good list with a Hag...

The biggest problem I see in running her is that she a) Eats up all your ally points which cuts down other options and b) I feel as though the MK is auto-include at 2k so together they are a huge points investment.

She and a MK are 820 combined. 2 units of 10 brutes are 720, A block of 6 Goregruntas would then leave you with 180 points. which is either an Ironfist with 20 spare or a unit of 10 Ardboys for defensively holding positions.

Base List 
460 - Mawkrusha 
360 - Troggoth Hag 

360 - Brutes*10
180 - Brutes*5
180 - Brutes*5

Total - 1540

Option 1
Combine Brutes*5 + Brutes*5 into Brutes*10
280 - Goregrunta*6
180 - Ardboys*10

Option 2
460 - Mawkrusha

Imo if you include her you're running a double MK slot with 100 points saved. That's kind of the role she fills.

Edited by Malakree

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Malakithe    244
1 minute ago, Malakree said:

I think the big question now is whether or not we take battalions, which personally I'm weighing with regards to the artefact. If I can't use it then I really lower the value of the battalion. Honestly I think our battalions are right on the cusp of being bad.

The biggest problem I see in running her is that she a) Eats up all your ally points which cuts down other options and b) I feel as though the MK is auto-include at 2k so together they are a huge points investment.

She and a MK are 820 combined. 2 units of 10 brutes are 720, A block of 6 Goregruntas would then leave you with 180 points. which is either an Ironfist with 20 spare or a unit of 10 Ardboys for defensively holding positions.

Base List 
460 - Mawkrusha 
360 - Troggoth Hag 

360 - Brutes*10
180 - Brutes*5
180 - Brutes*5

Total - 1540

Option 1
Combine Brutes*5 + Brutes*5 into Brutes*10
280 - Goregrunta*6
180 - Ardboys*10

Option 2
460 - Mawkrusha

Yeah I was going this route actually....a lot of people are making 2 MK lists so MW+Hag is still doable. Ive seen a 3 MK list that actually looked scary too. Either way its only 2 heroes. Beefy tanky heroes but still only 2 unless you go with the 2nd MK...but then that leaves only 20 Brutes which is almost at SCE level of elite bodies.

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Malakithe    244

So there is this with more bodies but only 2 tanky heroes..

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
Total: 2000/2000
 

Then there is this which probably looks absolutely terrifying to see infront of you...but very few bodies. Probably the most 'elite' list ive ever seen of any faction

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
Total: 2000/2000
 

I forgot about this one too

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Troggoth Hag (360)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
Total: 2000/2000

Edited by Malakithe

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Malakree    61

I definitely think IJ need to start experimenting with units of 6 goregruntas. At 3 they feel like a complete waste but with the cost reduction they potentially fill an important battleline slot. When you combine their 5 wounds and Bravery 7 they are actually quite resistant to battleshock which Brutes really suffer with. 

At 6 models they put out 19 attacks on 3/3/-1/1 and 24 attacks on 4/4/-/1 which is actually a reasonable amount. They seem to fill a nice role in between Brutes and Ardboyz which combined with the 80 points saved against a block of 10 brutes might make them usable.

Option 3

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
30 x Ardboyz (450)

Total: 1990/2000

10 points for a potential triumph roll as well !!!

IJ True Elites

Spoiler

 

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
6 x Goregruntas (280)
3 x Goregruntas (140)
3 x Goregruntas (140)

Battalion
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2,000

Models on board - 15!

 

With this in mind I'm currently asking GW to give all the Troggoth units "Battleline if" so that a full Troggoth Army would be viable.

Spoiler

 

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Troggoth Hag (360)
Troggoth Hag (360)
Troggoth Hag (360)

Battleline
3 x Troggoth (180)
3 x Troggoth (180)
3 x Troggoth (180)

Total: 1980

Only problem is you would run out of spells to cast haha.

 

 

Edited by Malakree

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PlasticCraic    15
55 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Option 3

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
30 x Ardboyz (450)

Total: 1990/2000

10 points for a potential triumph roll as well !!!

 

I like it!  

I've been looking at a very similar list - one thing I've done differently is switched out 10x Brutes for 6x GG and a Warchanter.  Mainly due to the chronic lack of speed without the Ironfist.  Although it's generally fair to say that More Brutes is More Better!

Edited by PlasticCraic
Typo

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Malakithe    244
1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Option 3

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
30 x Ardboyz (450)

Total: 1990/2000

10 points for a potential triumph roll as well !!!

Hmm im liking this one as well actually. Plenty of bodies and will still hit like a truck

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20 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

@sporadicMike so far faced Kharadron, clan Skyre and stormcast shooting and found that the 30 Ardboyz moving up as a buffer seems to work as a significant distraction (particularly in the mission that a 20 man unit pips others) that they focus fire on to the Ardboyz meaning the brutes and Mawkrusha hit home realatvily unscathed. It really does take a serious amount of effort to kill off all 30 boyz especially if I get the mystic shield and Inspiring presense off on them as well.  That said I've only played one game with out Ironfist so far so will try some more and see if I still prefer the extra bodies :-)

Thanks, I'll give this a try. My friend that i play the most against plays a nasty skyre list. One of those, you won't have  friends if you keep playing it. I personally have always enjoyed playing him in the past. We would go 5 rounds and it would be really fun on both sides. I can only remember being him once. However, i always had a great time. My sure speed would help mitigate his stormfiends and their instant mortal wounds. I could normally identify a moment in the game where a mistake i made could of turned the game. Under the new rules though I have not felt  that way. 

I  don't think he will see the 30 ardboyz as a distraction. He  always focus fires on what he perceives are the biggest threats. Normally my mawkrushas / 10 man units of brutes / megaboss. Any units larger than 30 he shoots with weapon teams (can't remember the exact name) but they do more damage to larger units. The new allegiance abilities and warpstone sparks are brutal. The weapons team against a 20+ unit can deal 12 damage at -2 rend. 

I've been trying out multiple different lists With ally options. Rock lobbas are still my favorite for the costs and long range. I was surprised how fast 40 orruks with shields died but  I lost a good number to battle shock. 

I've done well against other armies. Especially other melee armies that will run toward me.  I think I'm going to try running a unit of 6 gruntas in my next list.

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Malakithe    244
2 hours ago, sporadicMike said:

Thanks, I'll give this a try. My friend that i play the most against plays a nasty skyre list. One of those, you won't have  friends if you keep playing it. I personally have always enjoyed playing him in the past. We would go 5 rounds and it would be really fun on both sides. I can only remember being him once. However, i always had a great time. My sure speed would help mitigate his stormfiends and their instant mortal wounds. I could normally identify a moment in the game where a mistake i made could of turned the game. Under the new rules though I have not felt  that way. 

I  don't think he will see the 30 ardboyz as a distraction. He  always focus fires on what he perceives are the biggest threats. Normally my mawkrushas / 10 man units of brutes / megaboss. Any units larger than 30 he shoots with weapon teams (can't remember the exact name) but they do more damage to larger units. The new allegiance abilities and warpstone sparks are brutal. The weapons team against a 20+ unit can deal 12 damage at -2 rend. 

I've been trying out multiple different lists With ally options. Rock lobbas are still my favorite for the costs and long range. I was surprised how fast 40 orruks with shields died but  I lost a good number to battle shock. 

I've done well against other armies. Especially other melee armies that will run toward me.  I think I'm going to try running a unit of 6 gruntas in my next list.

Whats your current list?

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RuneBrush    1,125
6 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (360)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
Total: 2000/2000

Very cool, but needs a third battleline :) 

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Malakree    61
10 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Very cool, but needs a third battleline :) 

One of the Brute squads is split into two sets of 5 x Orruk Brutes, that's how you get 3 ;) 

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Malakithe    244
32 minutes ago, Malakree said:

One of the Brute squads is split into two sets of 5 x Orruk Brutes, that's how you get 3 ;) 

Wasnt paying attention lol but yeah that 

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Malakithe    244

Okay so im leaning towards a version of this..

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)
Total: 2000/2000

And this one...

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Troggoth Hag (360)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
Total: 2000/2000

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Sangfroid    467

@sporadicMike the key with a Skyre opponent is to "bubble wrap" your good stuff (Mawkrusha & brutes) with Ardboyz and or goregruntas. You make it so if/when they want to pop up and shoot all the can shoot is the Ardboyz. If they let you go first don't move anything out of the "bubble" just mystic shield and IP on the Ardboyz and wait. 

Depends on on the scenario a little but effectively your putting the pressure on them now, if they commit and hope for the double turn they will shred your boyz and quite possibly some of the brutes as well. If they don't get the double turn your counter charge should clear off the fiends or do so much that you can then advance anyway. 

If they chose not to commit they have wasted a turn too (and depending on the scenario may have lost points as well. Then if you win priority give it to them (so they then have to choose to commit without the chance of a double turn) if they win and give to you buff up the Ardboyz and stay put again. 

Im not sure if @Chris Tomlin got a good pic of my game 3 at BLACKOUT but that was against a very cool clan Skyre list that used 2 blocks of acolytes instead of Stormfiends but the principal is the same. If he can show the pic of my deployment you can see that 30 Ardboyz almost covers off the entire board when spaced an inch apart (approx 4 or 5 inch gap from edge of board either side)  it's one of the reasons I am struggling to drop the 30 even though my heart wants 20+ brutes 

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Next month there is a tournament in New Jersey I am considering attending. This is what I am considering taking:

Megaboss - Brutal Cunning, Destroyer (Gen)
Megaboss on Mawkrusha - Boss Skewer or Dubbing of Mork
Wierdnob Shaman
Warchanter
10 Brutes (JGH)
5 Brutes (Choppas)
10 Ardboyz
10 Ardboyz
3 Gore Gruntas 
Ironfist
2000/2000

Two alterations I am considering:
-drop one of the Ardboyz units for another 5 Brutes with choppas
-combine the two Ardboyz units for a 20 Ardboyz unit to contest GH2 scenarios

On the second point, the two 10-man Ardboyz units has given me versatility in the past to contest multiple points or simply to help with board control. However, while I will never doubt Ironjawz killing ability, the concern with hordes scoring objectives has me thinking I need to take at least one unit of 20 just to be ready for those scenarios

What say you?

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Malakree    61
3 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

Two alterations I am considering:
-drop one of the Ardboyz units for another 5 Brutes with choppas
-combine the two Ardboyz units for a 20 Ardboyz unit to contest GH2 scenarios

On the second point, the two 10-man Ardboyz units has given me versatility in the past to contest multiple points or simply to help with board control. However, while I will never doubt Ironjawz killing ability, the concern with hordes scoring objectives has me thinking I need to take at least one unit of 20 just to be ready for those scenarios

In my opinion if you ever take a unit of 20 Ardboyz it should be a unit of 30, you get the extra 10 for 90 points which honestly is the most cost efficient unit in the game. 

The other thing to consider is that a unit of 20 Ardboyz doesn't actually contest on the massive units scenarios, there's a couple of reasons for this. Firstly is that a single casualty, 2 wounds, loses you the massive unit. Second, any other race running a massive unit will be running it in blocks of 40+ meaning that to contest as a massive unit you need to be reducing their massives to none massive units. 

On the other hand I think 2 units of 10 Ardboyz is actually reasonable because they give you that flexibility even over a unit of 30. They aren't performing the same function as a single block of 30 so in that regard they get a pass. Best way to view this is that in order to fill the same role having taken a block of 30 you would still want another block of 10. Where as a single block of 20 you would always prefer to have 30 of them. 

With that in mind I would say your current list or replacing one of the 10 man Ardboyz with 5 Brutes are the two best options out of what is listed.


I also want to caution you about the Footboss being your general, he's a cool idea but I can see him being sniped in a whole range of ways. Try him and see. 

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5 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

@sporadicMike the key with a Skyre opponent is to "bubble wrap" your good stuff (Mawkrusha & brutes) with Ardboyz and or goregruntas. You make it so if/when they want to pop up and shoot all the can shoot is the Ardboyz. If they let you go first don't move anything out of the "bubble" just mystic shield and IP on the Ardboyz and wait. 

Depends on on the scenario a little but effectively your putting the pressure on them now, if they commit and hope for the double turn they will shred your boyz and quite possibly some of the brutes as well. If they don't get the double turn your counter charge should clear off the fiends or do so much that you can then advance anyway. 

If they chose not to commit they have wasted a turn too (and depending on the scenario may have lost points as well. Then if you win priority give it to them (so they then have to choose to commit without the chance of a double turn) if they win and give to you buff up the Ardboyz and stay put again. 

Im not sure if @Chris Tomlin got a good pic of my game 3 at BLACKOUT but that was against a very cool clan Skyre list that used 2 blocks of acolytes instead of Stormfiends but the principal is the same. If he can show the pic of my deployment you can see that 30 Ardboyz almost covers off the entire board when spaced an inch apart (approx 4 or 5 inch gap from edge of board either side)  it's one of the reasons I am struggling to drop the 30 even though my heart wants 20+ brutes 

I agree this could work. As you said it really depends on the scenario. I will for sure give this a try next time we play. He has told me in the past to go ahead and do nothing. He will shoot me from afar.

I attached his list the last time we played. He said he would only play this list again if I ask him to.

I had to reinstall the app and lost my list I will have to rebuild it. When I ran against him I had something like the list below

2x Maw Krushas
1x gruntas
1x gruntas
1x ardboyz
1x warchanter
1x weirdnob shawman
1x unit of 10 brutes
some more units of brutes to hit 2,500
2x doom divers

Thanks for the advice!

Skyre.pdf

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Sangfroid    467

Nice list, the things that can pepper you from afar that you are worried about (wind mortars etc...) focus on these with the doomdivers a lot of the other stuff has to get close to be lethal and that's when you can spring your trap. It's still and will almways be a tough match up that's scenario and priority roll dependent, but it's also nice you have a regular opponent who makes you stretch yourself, we learn more in defeat that in victory fighting against those lists that are solid means when you finnaly beat it (and you will) tastes so much the sweeter :-)

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Iradekhorne    69

i played agains that list:

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 2025x Big Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Total: 1990/2000
 

on second turn he get in combat with ardyboys, brutes and gore gruntas, and he DELETED 900 points of my 2000 points, eecause his habiliti of pick a unit and attack if the unit destroy any enemy unit.

Well the ardboys have 4 atacks each (he rerolled the waagh dice and the result was a 6) and the warchanter give to him inmunity to bravery and +1 to hit. He just wiped out my unit of 10 bloodwarriors (i killed 5 of then in response), my mighty lor of khorne, and 2 units of bloodreavers, then he activated the brutes and wiped me out 10 bloodreavers more, another 5 warriors and one aspiring deathbringer, and then he activated the gruntas but this boys only killed me 3 chaos knights and one korogath, cause they havent the warchanter buff.

I win the game cause i have archaon and i get the point and archaon survived tot he game with 2 wounds, but i feel like he totally deleted me in one turn xD.

big units are the best way to play this army, cause you buff him more easy, and if you killl any unit, you can activate other unit, its like attack first xD

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Malakree    61
44 minutes ago, Iradekhorne said:

eecause his habiliti of pick a unit and attack if the unit destroy any enemy unit.

Quick note, he doesn't get to pick it's the closest Ironjawz unit which can be activated. It weakens it a little but make sure he doesn't cheese you.

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Malakithe    244
3 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Nice list, the things that can pepper you from afar that you are worried about (wind mortars etc...) focus on these with the doomdivers a lot of the other stuff has to get close to be lethal and that's when you can spring your trap. It's still and will almways be a tough match up that's scenario and priority roll dependent, but it's also nice you have a regular opponent who makes you stretch yourself, we learn more in defeat that in victory fighting against those lists that are solid means when you finnaly beat it (and you will) tastes so much the sweeter :-)

Yeah the new Skaven Skryre meta is all about double chokelung...usually in the area of 4-6 PWM. This is probably the only army where 30 Ardboys wont work at all since the Skaven player can choose any one of them to pop double dmg on and use the D6 MW ability on 2 of them per turn.  You cant take out that many PWM with doom divers alone since they are usually just units of 1. Again...probably the only faction that 30 Ardboys wont work

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12 hours ago, Malakree said:

In my opinion if you ever take a unit of 20 Ardboyz it should be a unit of 30, you get the extra 10 for 90 points which honestly is the most cost efficient unit in the game. 

The other thing to consider is that a unit of 20 Ardboyz doesn't actually contest on the massive units scenarios, there's a couple of reasons for this. Firstly is that a single casualty, 2 wounds, loses you the massive unit. Second, any other race running a massive unit will be running it in blocks of 40+ meaning that to contest as a massive unit you need to be reducing their massives to none massive units. 

On the other hand I think 2 units of 10 Ardboyz is actually reasonable because they give you that flexibility even over a unit of 30. They aren't performing the same function as a single block of 30 so in that regard they get a pass. Best way to view this is that in order to fill the same role having taken a block of 30 you would still want another block of 10. Where as a single block of 20 you would always prefer to have 30 of them. 

With that in mind I would say your current list or replacing one of the 10 man Ardboyz with 5 Brutes are the two best options out of what is listed.


I also want to caution you about the Footboss being your general, he's a cool idea but I can see him being sniped in a whole range of ways. Try him and see. 

Appreciate the feedback. That's a good way of looking at Ardboyz. It's honestly why I have to put at least one or two units in my list. 30 is a scary number, but even 10 Ardboyz can do so much. They are, imo, one of the best basic infantry in the game. Even in horde meta, I feel 10 will still have a place in our armies. 

In regards to my megaboss on foot: I do not have a heavy shooting meta where I am, though I plan to attend more tournaments off of Long Island, so that may change. I have faced shooty armies or opponents that have tried to focus on my megaboss, but I usually keep him back in reserves, either out of range or bubble wrapped, and insert him when and where I need him the most to tip the scales in my favor. Instead, I like to throw other threats at them quickly so they have to divert and deal with them. Even without being the general, the Mawkrusha gets a lot of attention, so I use that to my advantage to rush the rest of my troops into positions that favor me, while my enemy is scrambling to kill the Cabbage. Sure, its a loss when he dies, but as long as he did his job of drawing the enemies attention (and dealing some damage to his or her ranks), that allows the rest of my boyz to score objectives or kill the rest of their army. Placing the general tag on the MK just makes him more of a priority to kill, and if he goes, then I lose my command abilities

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Malakithe    244
6 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

In regards to my megaboss on foot: I do not have a heavy shooting meta where I am, though I plan to attend more tournaments off of Long Island, so that may change. I have faced shooty armies or opponents that have tried to focus on my megaboss, but I usually keep him back in reserves, either out of range or bubble wrapped, and insert him when and where I need him the most to tip the scales in my favor. Instead, I like to throw other threats at them quickly so they have to divert and deal with them. Even without being the general, the Mawkrusha gets a lot of attention, so I use that to my advantage to rush the rest of my troops into positions that favor me, while my enemy is scrambling to kill the Cabbage. Sure, its a loss when he dies, but as long as he did his job of drawing the enemies attention (and dealing some damage to his or her ranks), that allows the rest of my boyz to score objectives or kill the rest of their army. Placing the general tag on the MK just makes him more of a priority to kill, and if he goes, then I lose my command abilities

Yeah that's a debate. No matter what the MK will be a priority target. If he is general then give him Ironclad to help out with his distraction roll. You can make him more tanky so he lasts longer. Does it matter if he uses his CA after turn one? Maybe pop IP then he flys away to do his job and you won't be in range to use CA again for another couple turns probably...unless running a ironfist

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Fungrim    353
16 hours ago, Iradekhorne said:

30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 2025x Big Choppas
- Ironjawz Battleline

 Imagine...

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Malakithe    244

There is still wiggle room with this but it does have a nice mix of stuff that could possibly deal with whatever happens. Target saturation is part of the strategy since the opponent will have to prioritize dealing with 2 Gargants, Brutes, and the MK

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)
Aleguzzler Gargant (170)
Total: 2000/2000

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