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Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine


Payce

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From what I've seen in the warhammer tv today I got the impression that the Witch Aelves will be at 120pts for 10 and will also get a discount if you go all the way to 30 with them. Take it with a bit of salt because I didn't hear it very well. I'll try to watch that part on demand tomorrow and will try to confirm.

As for allies, since we will use the Order allegiance really the sky is the limit. I will certainly agree on the Archmage as his spell will add much needed resillience in an otherwise fragile army...

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1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

As for allies, since we will use the Order allegiance really the sky is the limit. I will certainly agree on the Archmage as his spell will add much needed resillience in an otherwise fragile army...

That's not quite true. It is true that you'll need to use the Order Allegiance abilities.

But if you want to take Witch Aelves, Sisters of Slaughter or Warlocks as battleline, you'll need to stay within the Daughters of Khaine allegiance for the list building aspect. So you'll be limited to your 400 points of allies.

That or you'll have to find some suitable true battleline units, and make a mixed order army.

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the most obvious ally is probably darkling covens. their fluff revolves around sorceress queens of realms like shyish seeking refuge in azyr from chaos. with the new allegiance abilities i doubt they wouldnt be able to ally. to which id love to run sorceress on foot with a balewind vortex, as its something i already employ in my grand alliance army.

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5 hours ago, someone2040 said:

That's not quite true. It is true that you'll need to use the Order Allegiance abilities.

But if you want to take Witch Aelves, Sisters of Slaughter or Warlocks as battleline, you'll need to stay within the Daughters of Khaine allegiance for the list building aspect. So you'll be limited to your 400 points of allies.

That or you'll have to find some suitable true battleline units, and make a mixed order army.

I don't feel all these units will be battleline. 

Regardless though I feel that it is better for us to pay 240 pts for 3 units of a cheap order battleline and get the choice to use whichever unit we see fit rather than limiting our choices.

Fluff of course can be a factor but I believe that there units in the order that will fit the theme such as those of the darkling covens for exanple... :)

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11 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I don't feel all these units will be battleline. 

Regardless though I feel that it is better for us to pay 240 pts for 3 units of a cheap order battleline and get the choice to use whichever unit we see fit rather than limiting our choices.

Fluff of course can be a factor but I believe that there units in the order that will fit the theme such as those of the darkling covens for exanple... :)

It's been confirmed Warhammer Community that Witch Aelves, Doomfire Warlock and Sisters of Slaughter will all be "Battleline if DoK allegiance".

But more to the point, why would you even take DoK in a mixed Order army? They are far from the best options for what they do. Unless you intend to take DoK with three battleline units as your allies, in which case you still get the allegiance and don't need the battleline allies...? If you want to play mixed Order, in all honesty, you only ever pick elves for fluff. None of the units can do what other and newer armies do better than them currently. To play DoK is about collecting a specifically themed army and making the best of it,

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I'm creating an army very unique based on a theme I have thought and daughters of khainee will form a large part of this army. It will be based on a city state/kingdom of sorts and it will have mainly aelves as its denizens. It's been a long time since Ilet my imagination take the lead with the hobby and I am very excited to make something unique. The theme is in the works but when I get to it I'll make a topic and will throw a link here. :)

Game-wise I already have over 6000pts of Stormcast Eternals and some 3000pts Sylvaneth if I want an army of the new ones and go full compatitive. With this project though I want to create something unique and make it work. Perhaps it won't be as powerful but it will maqke for an interesting challenge for me.

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Thank you so much for posting this, @Uncas. Let's get to it!

First and foremost, the Witch reduction with the mighty horde is... literally a dream come true. A saving of 150 points per thirty girls is mindblowingly good. There's literally no reason not to run at least two, often three units of these now (except, you know, the cash cost of that many Witch boxes). The Warlocks as well are really good now, since it's actually viable to take a unit of 10, though I expect we'll primarily still use 5 and run more units. The points change to the Sisters are a nice bonus, though I'm unsure if they'll ever be viable taking as a Mighty Horde. Slightly cheaper Cauldron won't make or break the list either, though the 20 points here and there will probably add up - three of them and you get an extra Death Hag.

The Medusae remains unchanged, which sadly makes her remain a far inferior option to the Shrine, which is also unchanged. The flat out massive amount of additional damage and utility you get for 20 points more and some sacrificed mobility with the Shrine is just too good to pass up on. At this point, the only reason I see to ever take the single Medusae is to use the extra model from your Cauldron kit.

The Sisterhood change is massive. A whopping 100 points more expensive is going to have to make us think hard and long about taking this. As I said in the first post, it's not particularly good, and even at 40 points, taking it wasn't mandatory. Now, at 140 points, it feels downright unplayable - the only reason I can see currently for taking this batallion is to get the one-drop. With batallions becoming far more expensive across the line for everyone (look at the Thrall Warhost), one-drop armies are going to become rarer, and having the option of having one of the cheaper ones available might be a tactical pro. The downside is the limit on Death Hags you get, which will significantly hold you back as you get less Witchbrews. Playtesting is needed, but as of now, I'm leaning more towards not using it than using it.

As for allies, well, no Hurricanum, no Durthu, no Archmage. The combo that immediately stands out to me is 20 Black Guard and a Sorceress (for Mystic Shield) from the Darklings, though the price drop to Executioners is a welcome addition as well. 40 points saved is two thirds of another Witchbrew. I'll be interested to see if the basic "Aelfs" (Shard and Mistweaver) are available to us, they're not on the list but there might be something in the allies core rules about them. Seems odd that they would be unavailable to both Daughters and Darklings, but we'll see. With only Darkshards, Dark Riders and Corsairs available, I think the idea of getting any decent ranged damage support should be buried immediately - we should use our allied contigent primarily to add to our strength, rather than patch up our weaknesses, I think.

Also note the massive points cost reduction to the Black Dragon, and the fact that we can take Stormcast. Both of these points merit a post of their own, so I'll not go into it now.

I'll tinker around a bit with lists and ideas, and post some more later. For now, however, I'm just going to listen to Indila on repeat and do a happy dance.

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On 8/20/2017 at 2:46 PM, Payce said:

As for allies, well, no Hurricanum, no Durthu, no Archmage. The combo that immediately stands out to me is 20 Black Guard and a Sorceress (for Mystic Shield) from the Darklings, though the price drop to Executioners is a welcome addition as well. 40 points saved is two thirds of another Witchbrew. I'll be interested to see if the basic "Aelfs" (Shard and Mistweaver) are available to us, they're not on the list but there might be something in the allies core rules about them. 

Also note the massive points cost reduction to the Black Dragon, and the fact that we can take Stormcast. Both of these points merit a post of their own, so I'll not go into it now.

I'm pretty happy to see the points changes but at the same time not thrilled about the allies. Basically the allies here are just bringing back the old Druchii force which is fine for those of us with old Druchii models but from an Age of Sigmar standpoint I really don't understand the thinking by GW here. Why no Sylvaneth or "High" Aelfs or Wanders or Free Peoples allies? 

 

Otherwise yeah the Blood Wrack Sisterhood is a non-starter - it requires too many units, is too expensive and isn't all that useful. Much better sinking those 140 pts into an allied unit.

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ive been thinking why would you take Daughter of Khaine units as allies, the only units i can think that would make good allies are doomfire warlocks, or the medusea and her shrine. most of the armies we can ally with already have units that do basily the same thing that our army does, (darkling coven,  privateeres) and thoes armies can also ally with the faction that may benift with our units, (sepentis, shadowbaldes and stormcast). am i just missing somthing.

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On 8/17/2017 at 1:44 PM, Siegfried VII said:

I'm creating an army very unique based on a theme I have thought and daughters of khainee will form a large part of this army. It will be based on a city state/kingdom of sorts and it will have mainly aelves as its denizens. It's been a long time since Ilet my imagination take the lead with the hobby and I am very excited to make something unique. The theme is in the works but when I get to it I'll make a topic and will throw a link here. :)

 

Ol Har Ganeth!

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1 hour ago, Sennyo said:

ive been thinking why would you take Daughter of Khaine units as allies, the only units i can think that would make good allies are doomfire warlocks, or the medusea and her shrine. most of the armies we can ally with already have units that do basily the same thing that our army does, (darkling coven,  privateeres) and thoes armies can also ally with the faction that may benift with our units, (sepentis, shadowbaldes and stormcast). am i just missing somthing.

Honestly? I wouldn't. The Daugthers aren't allies material. If you want to play them, make them your core army and use other allies instead. The punch they offer in that limited numbers is just inferior to what you can get elsewhere. The only exception I'd consider is taking Shrines for utility and ranged threat.

I had some fun trying to build a full Daughters list, no allies, today, and came up with the following:

2x Cauldron, both with Deathswords
3x Death Hags, all Witchbrew
2x30 Witch Aelves, full commands
30 Sisters of Slaughter, full command
2x5 Doomfire Warlocks
2x Bloodwrack Shrine


Hags provide brews for all the girls, and hide in their rear ranks to stay clear of sniping. Warlocks flank and add ranged threat, and lategame Mystic Shields. Cauldrons and Shrines march up behind the girls providing them with fire support and bloodshields. I think the real threat of this list is the triple punch of units that are too big to fully remove before they hit you, and with the addition of the massive soak potential of the four wagons, it makes for a terrible psychological effect. The total of five Heroes means your banners will almost always be in full effect, for that sweet, juicy BV9, making battleshock less of an issue.

I'll look a bit into allies as well, seeing what might fit. I've considered dropping a Shrine and a unit of Locks for a Sorceress Dragon straight up. Thoughts?

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5 minutes ago, Cinncinnatus said:

With the advent of Hordes, does anyone see big upside in Medusa's? That ability should make any horde nervous, especially if you have more than one.

Yep.  A unit of 3 Medusa, shooting at the same target, will do the model count of that unit in Mortal wounds to it.  Every round.  

A 60 model unit will take 60 mortal wounds, statistically.  Medusa are the great equalizer.  
 

Btw, I wasn't joking with this being a top table army.  This force has bodies, high mobility, ward saves, ability to deal with hordes, ignores magic dominance (of Seraphon and Tzeentch), mortal wound output...and can easily be a 3 drop army.  

 

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1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Actually, I feel really confident that Daughters will be at able to play on top tables.  I've put together a couple lists and I'm pretty sure we have the potential to have a GT winner from pure Daughters, no allies :-)

I think they'll be highly competitive, I think they have 2 major weaknesses; Character sniping(it's not hard to kill death hags or blood cauldrons) and Dracoth stormcast/Sylvaneth. Any army that can get a 2+ rerollable and have too low of a model count for medusa to be useful will give them trouble.

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1 minute ago, BURF1 said:

I think they'll be highly competitive, I think they have 2 major weaknesses; Character sniping(it's not hard to kill death hags or blood cauldrons) and Dracoth stormcast/Sylvaneth. Any army that can get a 2+ rerollable and have too low of a model count for medusa to be useful will give them trouble.

Well, the ward saves stack, so both your witch elves and your Cauldrons will have two 5+ ward saves.  This will cut incoming wounds down by 66%.  

Regarding tough to crack targets, you'll have multiple sources of mortal wounds, including shoving a block of Sisters of Slaughter at them.  Depending on items, a Death Hag on foot could be equipped to deal with such threats as well.

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2 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Well, the ward saves stack, so both your witch elves and your Cauldrons will have two 5+ ward saves.  This will cut incoming wounds down by 66%.  

Two 5+ wards, back to back, will reduce wounds taken by 55%, not 66%. 

First ward: stops 1/3 of the wounds
Second ward: stops 1/3 of the remaining 2/3 (so 2/9 of the original wounds)

1/3 + 2/9 = 5/9 = 55%

Sorry to be pedantic, but I'm a nerd for a living :)

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3 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Two 5+ wards, back to back, will reduce wounds taken by 55%, not 66%. 

First ward: stops 1/3 of the wounds
Second ward: stops 1/3 of the remaining 2/3 (so 2/9 of the original wounds)

1/3 + 2/9 = 5/9 = 55%

Sorry to be pedantic, but I'm a nerd for a living :)

Sorry, that was my approximation for 3 Cauldrons of Blood (closer to 70%).  Two saves will reduce it by 55%

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1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I've put together a couple lists and I'm pretty sure we have the potential to have a GT winner from pure Daughters, no allies :-)

Care to share? If not complete lists, then some general ideas and pointers? So far I'm getting triple Medusae and triple Cauldron, big batch of Sisters (which I agree so much with), but what are your overall thoughts on things like Witchbrew, Cauldron loadout, Warlocks?

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30 minutes ago, Payce said:

Care to share? If not complete lists, then some general ideas and pointers? So far I'm getting triple Medusae and triple Cauldron, big batch of Sisters (which I agree so much with), but what are your overall thoughts on things like Witchbrew, Cauldron loadout, Warlocks?

I need to see the Order general allegiance traits and items but you have the right idea.  While I considered triple Cauldron, I don't ultimately think it is the right way to go.  Instead, this is what I am tentatively planning: 

140     Bloodwrack Sisterhood

  • 200     Cauldron of Blood (General, Witchbrew)
  • 140     Bloodwrack Shrine
  • 60       Death Hag (Either Deathsword or Witchbrew)
  • 270     30 Witch Aelves
  • 270     30 Witch Aelves
  • 360     30 Sisters of Slaughter

360     3 Bloodwrack Medusa

200     Cauldron of Blood (Witchbrew)

This force is a three drop army with double 5+ ward saves on your Witch Aelves and Cauldrons, double 6+ on everything else.  You can grant 2-3 units battleshock immunity, depending on if you choose to use Inspiring presence or double pile-in.  The battalion also grants the possibility of an extra pile-in as well.  The three Medusa and the Shrine will both be gut punches for any other high model count armies.  All three of your infantry blocks will grind most stuff down by weight of attacks.  You send in the Sisters on the particularly tough nuts for the chance to kick back mortal wounds.  You have high movement infantry blocks, one of which has a 2" reach so you can stagger ranks.  Best of all is that all of your buffs are coming from priests so you are completely independent of magic so the magic supremacy of Tzeentch and the Seraphon is meaningless.  At the same time, both of the Cauldrons give you an unbind.  Finally, you'll have three high wound heroes/behemoths to hold objectives for the scenarios that need such a thing.  

If you wanted to drop the 3 Bloodwrack Medusa on foot, you could trade them out for another Cauldron (for triple ward saves) and a unit of Warlocks (in the battalion) so you pick up some extra targeted mortal wound output.

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