Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[Nutty]

I'm not sure about the current edition, but didn't the Khorne Bloodbound (40k) guys get a mechanic where they get points for units destroyed in melee? Such a thing might work for DoK: murder enough enemy units in Khaine's name and be able to apply buffs to your own units (like turning your general in a giant snakemonster)

[Let's 'ere it for da boyz!]

16 hours ago, Payce said:

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

 

I don’t think, from a game design perspective, this setup would require two kits or two warscrolls.  There could easily be two melee profiles, one for each ‘form’ Morathi takes.  Maybe some wording on the scroll like, “when Morathi is in ‘x’ form she gains this ability.”    Also, this could be the first scroll where all the baseline values could be asterisks.  Wounds, movement and save would probably all change when a new form is taken.

Add in a Hero-sized sprue in the big snake kit, and...Voila!

Pure speculation, but it’s so much fun.  And I’m sure we’ll all be excited by whatever GW comes up with.

[DantePQ]

Why maybe you just need two models for it to work and she difference between two version is massive. 

For example small version would be extremely good at spellcasting 

Bigger model would be combat monster. 

That would leave player with a choice (if it isn't triggered randomly which would be horrible) what skills use. Quite amazing especially if she can't go back to smaller form. That kind of flexibility would be greatly fun and would also require a lot of thinking how to use her to maximize her potential. 

Also maybe she could be taken in small version only and shape-shifting version so you can use her without paying for bigger version. 

Also that could be one big box. I doubt she will be as big as Archaon or Alarielle but if there are two minis in box they can sell it. 

That won't be poor design but great design, introducing new machanism that requires a lot of thinking. 

[BURF1]

20 hours ago, Payce said:

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

Besides, if the alleged source of this rumour is so plausible, why are there no other leaks? Literally not a single other unit or rule has been revealed. I could be wrong, but until I see a definite leak that confirms Morathi having two models, I'm pouring all the salt in the Dead Sea on it.

Well A. Because we already know all the other units. It's not a leak if they already announced it. It's not like they showed off her warscroll, they just said 'hey this thing is crazy right?'and B. Because what rule would be more interesting to pass along the rumor chain than 'snaek look like a lady lol'? After that little tidbit who gives a ****** about a relic that on 5+ does a mortal wound or w/e?

[zedatkinszed]

6 hours ago, The Traitor said:

Having some sort of shape shifting power would be pretty cool, wonder how the mechanic will be, maybe they could make it a spell, like the old transformation of Khadon (or something like that, it was the sixth power from the lore of beasts in WHFB 8th ed). Also, will the models come in the same box? Or will you have to buy them appart?

My guess is the mechanic will be either a spell or a hero phase action that requires a dice roll. And yeah I fully expect a single box with 1 or 2 sprues and no way to buy the smaller Morathi on her own (from GW )

21 hours ago, Payce said:

This remains pure speculation, and I would be very, very surprised if there's anything to it other than internet hearsay. Morathi having two separate warscrolls would not only be extremely poor game design, it would make one or both models obsolete in various settings, which discourages buying both - definitely not something that's in GW's best interests.

1

I bet this is a misunderstanding. I'd be shocked at this point if Morathi doesn't have 2 models (set aside the rumour - everything from the 2 videos points to this). That said Morathi would be unlikely to have 2 scrolls but rather one with two entries/states on it. The models that have a movement and range characteristic dependant on the number of wounds they've suffered are not a million miles away (from a design perspective). Their state changes due to being wounded - Morathi's state will change due to ability/spell/etc that causes her to transform.

Salt is always good with rumours but this rumour seems plausible given the videos.

[Lightbox]

So whilst we've spitballed a lot recently about what we might like to see units do I'm quite wondering what allegiance abilities we'll end up getting.

 

Hopefully something to either make our witches hit harder or a bit more resilient would be nice. I see shooting as potentially quite scary with the low armour saves. I expect our harpies and gorgons will be like 5+ or 6+ really (maybe 4+ for the gorgons) Hopefully the spear units will have some rend, would be cool for our basic troops to bring lots of attacks but our elites bring some rend and damage so we can deal with both hordes and strong elite armies.

 

I'd highly expect gorgons & or harpies to become battleline if. Wouldn't be surprised if warlocks lost their batteline if status tbh. I think possibly abilities to deal extra attacks in turns where units are wiped out might be nice, or have an ability where after an enemy unit gets completely destroyed we get a bonus for the game as the whole sacrificing the opponents to khaine thing etc. Bonesplitters have a similar thing for monsters, though killing a monster is far harder than an enemy unit tbh. As a melee focused army movement tricks would be lovely, perhaps we could get a prayer to 'push' units in our hero phase? Or some stuff to make us able to hero phase pile in (battalion possibly) to get across the whole super speedy fragile killer dynamic. Generally glass cannon armies in warhammer seem to be fast (mostly looking at 40k's harlies and dark elder) to make up for the fragility. So I'd be surprised if we don't get some sort of speed tricks. Possibly a ward save in combat like dark elder wyches could be a cool.

 

Definitely like to see bloodshield be a 5+ for all units really.

 

As a sidenote the gorgon models are now making me want to consider doing some slaanesh fiends as mermaids... the giant morathi could easily be turned into a mermaid keeper of secrets too  Hopefully the new kits will be pretty convertible. And not a pain to put together...

[The Traitor]

Slaaneshi aelves for the win!

[DantePQ]

Slaaneshi Aelves or Eldar doesn't make any sense when considering AoS and Wh40 Lore and I hope it will never happen. 

[Lightbox]

6 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Slaaneshi Aelves or Eldar doesn't make any sense when considering AoS and Wh40 Lore and I hope it will never happen. 

Nope but the kits do go together really nicely for non-elf conversions.

 

 

Though I think slaaneshi elf cults did used to be a thing in old world warhammer. And tbh with the vast scope of the mortal realms almost anything is possible.

[Twitch of Izalith]

15 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Though I think slaaneshi elf cults did used to be a thing in old world warhammer. And tbh with the vast scope of the mortal realms almost anything is possible.

Given that the eldar literally created Slaanesh I would say there is a huge relationship there. Even if its terrifying and dysfunctional to most elves/eldar its not a huge leap to think that some might embrace it. It would be great to see different races in general represented in the followers of all the chaos gods. I think its a bit simplistic to make it that only humans can fall to chaos.

We are definitely seeing closer links between slaanesh and elves/eldar in the model designs. Morathi is "twisted into the form of her tormentor" - by which she presumably means Dechala The Denied One since its Dechala that shows up in the end times to taunt Malekith that his mother is a prisoner of Slaanesh. And Dechala is a big snake lady of course... but she used to be a high elf.

And in 40k not so up on the lore but  the newest  Eldar models look pretty Slaaneshi to me...

 

[Let's 'ere it for da boyz!]

4 hours ago, Lightbox said:

So whilst we've spitballed a lot recently about what we might like to see units do I'm quite wondering what allegiance abilities we'll end up getting.

 

Great topic!  I kind of agree that this army will have pretty low armor across the board.  However, I could see (read: it would be awesome if...) their allegiance ability were something like:

Quote

Bloodshield:  Any Time a DoK model wholly within ‘x’ inches of a DoK hero suffers an unsaved wound or mortal wound, that model may roll a dice.  On a 4+ that wound or mortal wound is ignored.

 It’s powerful, but would require careful positioning and some tactical foresight, so I don’t think it would be OP.

It would be a way to stiffen our troops up and divert from the common trend of armies getting ways around actually playing the game during the movement phase as allegiance abilities.

This would also free up the Cauldron/Shrine to do something new and unique or perhaps boost the ability somehow.

[Aelfric]

I know that it has been stated that it is an Order Battletome, but part of me wonders if Morathi's ( if it is her ) serpent form might be if the army can also be used under a Chaos allegiance, whilst the standard Aelf form is for Order allegiance.   Just a thought, but perhaps just wishful thinking.

[DantePQ]

Dynamic between Aelves and Slaasnesh is clear, but with new lore we know about it doesn't make sense to have Slaanesh Aelves, Slaanesh in AoS like in Wh40 loves to consume Aelves souls (he tried to do it with Morathi after all) theirs dynamic is cool but rules out Slaanesh Aelves. 

That's why DE are not Chaos Eldar/Slaasnesh Eldar. There could be multiple connections but that's all. Yncarne looks Slaasnesh alike becasue maybe that's how Aelves see their "Gods" after all Slaasnesh was created because of them so that make perfect sense that Yncarne is similar in design. 

I think Mortahi hatred for Slaasnesh kills any chances of "Slaaneshi Aelves" , also in WFB Elves-Slaasnesh dynamic was completely different (that why there could be Aelves Slaanesh cults) but AoS is similar in that dynamic to Wh40k. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I hoping we can use the cauldron of bloods khaine statue as an avatar of khaine for the daughters. And he gets stronger the more murder that happens!

As on the teaser video it looked like the statue was standing by itself and not on the cauldron.

 

How epic would that be!!!

[DantePQ]

7 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

I hoping we can use the cauldron of bloods khaine statue as an avatar of khaine for the daughters. And he gets stronger the more murder that happens!

As on the teaser video it looked like the statue was standing by itself and not on the cauldron.

 

How epic would that be!!!

Then I will use Avatar of Khaine by FW  

[Tiger]

There are some differences between Eldar - Slaanesh and Elves - Slaanesh. Where Eldar contributed majority of the energy to the accumulation that was later named Slaanesh, I don't think I've ever seen any source claiming that WH elves did the same. Unless you find an appeal in the theory of AoS/fantasy world being part of the 40k universe (Skaven calling Eldar ).

Slaanesh elves have much higher possibility of existing in AoS than in 40k.  Certain Keepers of Secrets were made from the ancient eldar but you need to understand that Fiends and other daemons of Slaanesh are very likely manifested from a perversion of an Eldar soul, it gives no appeal in following that path because to an eldar, his soul is going to get obliterated and he can see the result should he be unlucky enough to stumble on daemons of Slaanesh.

 I don't like the avatar of Ynnead, however I am willing to admit that there might be something to the theory of the avatar of Ynnead being similar to Slaanesh as they're both manifested from the eldar souls. Not really keen on the theory but it is an explanation, until I can find something that would suggest otherwise.

Without the personal history that burdens the Eldar, the AoS elves are more free in how to develop. Cult of Excess was one of the hands that pulled the actors in place and lead to the civil war among the elves.

Hunger of the Chaos Gods for elven/eldar souls seems fairly consistent, with AoS going even a step forward and suggesting that elven souls have unparalleled potential. Nagash for instance can create many potent artifacts or use the energy to re-animate/bind the cadavers. He surely wasn't furious because only few elven souls are arriving to their final destination so they could be granted the undisturbed sleep.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Just now, DantePQ said:

Then I will use Avatar of Khaine by FW  

Haha let's not get cray cray now would be cool though, a buff monster who is relatively tanky with a shard of the widow maker

[DantePQ]

4 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Haha let's not get cray cray now would be cool though, a buff monster who is relatively tanky with a shard of the widow maker

Doesn't matter I have spare FW Avatar of Khaine and will use him both on Cauldron and on base (if there is an option of course)

[The Traitor]

In WHFB there was a Dark Elf cult of Slaanesh (lead by Morathi, btw), and even though it seems Morathi is no more part of it, I don't see why it would cease to exist. All of the followers of Chaos know the terrible fate that awaits them if they die, but they're so corrupted they think they can scape death in one way or another. 

[Lightbox]

48 minutes ago, Let's 'ere it for da boyz! said:

Great topic!  I kind of agree that this army will have pretty low armor across the board.  However, I could see (read: it would be awesome if...) their allegiance ability were something like:

 It’s powerful, but would require careful positioning and some tactical foresight, so I don’t think it would be OP.

It would be a way to stiffen our troops up and divert from the common trend of armies getting ways around actually playing the game during the movement phase as allegiance abilities.

This would also free up the Cauldron/Shrine to do something new and unique or perhaps boost the ability somehow.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening. It's basically deaths deathless minions but heaps better. And since they had their warlord trait to make it 5+when near the general removed I don't see us getting an army wide 4+ near heroes. It'd ve nice sure but I'd prefer to see something a little more unique really.

 

Possibly we could do something like get -1 rend near heroes or if an enemy unit dies. It's unlikely but could be nice for giving us that bite.

 

Possibly an ability to deep strike near cauldrons could be cool, give us that mobility and put us in range of buffs to weather shooting if we fail our charge.

 

Wonder whether our command abilities might change much? Could see gorgons or harpies needing their respective heroes for getting some good command traits or buffs. Kinda like how how in DoT some tzaangor units need a shaman instead of just an arcanite hero for buffs.

[Richelieu]

I wonder about the allegiance abilities.  They already introduced blood tithe for Khorne, so it would seem a bit lazy to follow a similar path, getting powers for killing enemies, even if it would fit the flavor reasonably well. 

I could definitely see a Prayer Lore over a spell lore. 

I don't want to get too caught up in speculation though.  If you look at the Legions of Nagash threads, even though there are some really fun, powerful and interesting new rules there was so much griping simply because it was so different from what people had hoped for or speculated about.

 

[Tiger]

59 minutes ago, The Traitor said:

All of the followers of Chaos know the terrible fate that awaits them if they die, but they're so corrupted they think they can scape death in one way or another. 

I wouldn't be so certain. Some mortal followers might hold more idealized tale or perhaps their idea of an afterlife might be something that doesn't involve the chaos gods.  Those sworn (willingly or not) to a specific god would probably had a good idea what awaits them. To many, the risk of obliterating their very existence on a chance of transcending the mundane world is a risk worth taking.

[zedatkinszed]

10 hours ago, Lightbox said:

So whilst we've spitballed a lot recently about what we might like to see units do I'm quite wondering what allegiance abilities we'll end up getting.

 

Hopefully something to either make our witches hit harder or a bit more resilient would be nice. I see shooting as potentially quite scary with the low armour saves. I expect our harpies and gorgons will be like 5+ or 6+ really (maybe 4+ for the gorgons) Hopefully the spear units will have some rend, would be cool for our basic troops to bring lots of attacks but our elites bring some rend and damage so we can deal with both hordes and strong elite armies.

 

I'd highly expect gorgons & or harpies to become battleline if. Wouldn't be surprised if warlocks lost their batteline if status tbh. I think possibly abilities to deal extra attacks in turns where units are wiped out might be nice, or have an ability where after an enemy unit gets completely destroyed we get a bonus for the game as the whole sacrificing the opponents to khaine thing etc. Bonesplitters have a similar thing for monsters, though killing a monster is far harder than an enemy unit tbh. As a melee focused army movement tricks would be lovely, perhaps we could get a prayer to 'push' units in our hero phase? Or some stuff to make us able to hero phase pile in (battalion possibly) to get across the whole super speedy fragile killer dynamic. Generally glass cannon armies in warhammer seem to be fast (mostly looking at 40k's harlies and dark elder) to make up for the fragility. So I'd be surprised if we don't get some sort of speed tricks. Possibly a ward save in combat like dark elder wyches could be a cool.

 

To be honest I'd be careful of speculating on this kind of thing. It's really just a one-way ticket to heart-break.

It does show how starved for detail we are at this point though. GW could do with giving us something:

• Another view of Morathi's snake form
• Lore details
• Rules hints
• A Warhammer Community article

At this point anything because if they don't the hype train will derail and the speculation will out-match the end result and hopes will be dashed

 

[Azurious]

I am really hoping that we don't get a blanket roll over x to ignore wounds.  Fyrslayers already have this and while it is definitly excellent and makes them very competitive I wouldn't want the DoK to feel like a re skined dwarf army.   This being said the army will need some kind of defensive mechanic so it will be interesting to see what comes.

[DantePQ]

 

Slaanesh is different kind of God then Khorne or Nurgle in Wh40k there is a reason why Eldar are terrified to die even Dark Eldar she/he feasts on them. 

In older WFB lore he wasn't that way towards Aelves it was more seductive way and he/she didn't feast on their souls. Now it's clear he/she is more like Wh40k and Elves will hate/fear him/her. That's why there are no Slaanesh Eldar he/she would feast on them instead using them to fight he/she can find it elsewhere unlike Eldar souls. Even Dark Eldar who are basically Slaaneshi in theirs ways are as far away from Slaanesh as they could be. 

Cult of Pleasure was in WFB where Slaanesh was different and even though Morathi just loathes him/her now.