Jump to content

Allies as battleline


LJ26

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Battleline is important. It represents the core rank and file troops. Every model cant have "OMG SO GOOD" rules. If they removed the requirement to have zombies, clanrats, infantry men, etc. - then no one would ever take them. Why send in the army when you have 1000 navy seals? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense is why. Every general would like to have nothing but the most elite troops, but its far easier to recruit 100 grunts than one super solider. You have to find a good candidate - train them, buy them better equipment, keep them well fed and well rested.

You are absolutely correct - specialists are specialists, not rank-and-file grunts.  In most instances of warfare where holding territory was the key to victory, basic infantry will be just as valuable as the cavalry/armored division/artillery (not counting the logistics behind the armies!).  In your example of Navy SEALS, they don't usually get deployed in major battles, rather they are already tough and proven soldiers who undergo further training and get special equipment for performing certain tasks, usually guerrilla tactics or precision attacks.  The reasons why SEALS don't form the bulk of the military is due to the additional costs of time and resources in training already competent soldiers to be even better soldiers.

I was reminded just yesterday of the term "irregulars" that is used to describe the groups of soldiers or volunteers that would fight with unusual tactics and weaponry.  In any case or weapons or strategies employed, they are still a capable fighting force that could be used to add flavor to a wargaming army.  Not quite specialists, but not the regular Battleline/Core/grunts either.

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Battleline also tends to be cheaper per model, so you get more models on the table as well, making your 'army' feel more like an 'army' and less like an 'elite warband'.

Points are not a good example. elite models are worth more than their points. One elite model could be worth 5 non elite models for what they do, and the cost is never 5x as much. The onyl time points are relevant in this way is when they make a model cost so many points that they essentially 'price it out' so that nobody takes the model with broken rules anymore.

The problem right now is that the lines have become blurred to much.

As they should, Battleline would typically be conscripted citizens, a volunteer militia, or professional soldiers.  These would be the bulk of any force, with the specialists forming the elite and the irregulars somewhere in the middle.  And the lines have blurred because of the nature of the setting of Age of Sigmar, or at least the scope of the battles as presented by the rules and model - when units as powerful as Alarielle and Archaon can just come into the fight, then anything goes from that point.  40K has the same problem what with Super-Heavies being available in any game, rather than being saved for special occasions such as mega-battles or Narrative Scenarios.  Why spend the time and money painting up lots of grunts when you can just play with the big fancy centerpiece models?

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

There are many cases where armies can just throw in under 200 points of battleline and fill up their army with the best stuff. Luckily, it looks like they are reeling this in and fixing this problem by forcing armies to spend more on battleline. I'm hoping they make the minimum 10 liberators, taking stormcast down a notch and forcing more troops on the ground. Clanrats, the only generic Skaven battleline, are now minimum of 20 instead of 10, doubling the cost to field only these troops. Likely the same will happen for ghouls, zombies, skeletons, skinks, etc. 

Another thing they are doing is changing how the battleline units work. A purebred army of Verminous can field all stormvermin. This is cool but pricey, and there is not much you can use to fill out the list. Stormvermin are still rank and file troopers, so this still works.

Overall its clear they are working toward making battleline make more sense, adding more troops to the field and making armies look and function more like armies. If you want to fill up your army with whatever you want and skip this part, open play does not have any army building restrictions. 

By making these changes to units sizes and points costs at max size, they are not just shaking up the competitive scene and changing how the games will play, but they are also giving a reason to take the basic grunts in an army in a game where that was not previously typically done in some armies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 93
  • Created
  • Last Reply
6 hours ago, Auticus said:

I've fought stormcast about 10,000 times.  You know how many times I've seen a liberator hit my table?  Once.  

The more of your posts i read, the more your gaming experience sounds weird compared to mine.

I always take liberators in my Stormcast list.

Edit: Also the more I notice you must exagerate!  10,000 is a huge amount of games. That's one game of Age of Sigmar EVERY DAY for 27 YEARS. Just against Stormcast. 

Seeing as AoS has been out for about two years, how did you manage to fit in any games against any of the other factions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For what its worth i dont think ive played against a stormcast list without liberators in it. Then again, my usual opponent has a real hard on for them with staunch defender. Group of 10 is actually a pretty solid anvil for skeleton hordes to break upon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like that battleline makes armies look more like armies. It's a shame we're forced into it though. 

Would it possible to make these core type units an attractive prospect purely with costing? I can't see that we'd always go for elite units if the extra body units were cheap enough. 

Alternatively, battleplans where only battleline could claim objectives would mean we'd make those difficult decisions ourselves. 

I wonder if the same could be true of all restrictions. Do we need a limit on behemoths for example? Taking more than four would generally be a bad move anyway, as you'd have nothing to claim objectives in 'most models' battleplans. 

Finally, can I just ask that we keep the thread friendly, please? Quoting each others pronouns causes fisticuffs. 

Thanks. 

Steve. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, hobgoblinclub said:

I like that battleline makes armies look more like armies. It's a shame we're forced into it though. 

Would it possible to make these core type units an attractive prospect purely with costing? I can't see that we'd always go for elite units if the extra body units were cheap enough.

</snip>

I think that was the intent behind the horde bonuses built into the old core troops (skeletons, zombies, bloodletters, plaguebearers, freeguild units, etc). Take 20+ get a nifty cool thing, sometimes an even niftier cooler thing for 30+. Now with the massive regiment discounts they seem to be pushing even harder in that direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Auticus said:

The thing is by putting more powerful things as battleline, there will never be a reason to take normal chaffe units unless you really just like the models.

I've fought stormcast about 10,000 times.  You know how many times I've seen a liberator hit my table?  Once.  The day we played the starter box.  The unit that is in every novel and represented as the core backbone of the stormcast, and I've seen it day one of the game and that was it.

I'm struggling to think of a time when I haven't seen liberators in a stormcast army... 

They are super for their points and a great example of what battle line should be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep Liberators are sweet. Some rend and multi damage, damage output concentrated heavily into the last model, rerolling saves of 1 and interesting special rule for 5 wounders.

On Battleplans where more models matters, you could probably do surprisingly well, by just lobbing 80 Liberators at someone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My issue with battleline is that it dictates number of units rather than number of models. I totally get why battleline is a requirement, but don't like that it encourages loads of little units rather than hordes; why should I be punished for having 2 units of 40 goblins rather than 4 units of 20 goblins? 

I see it as a painting tax. You can't get a horde of 40 goblins into your army unless you've already painted 60 of the little gits. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Auticus said:

The thing is by putting more powerful things as battleline, there will never be a reason to take normal chaffe units unless you really just like the models.

I've fought stormcast about 10,000 times.  You know how many times I've seen a liberator hit my table?  Once.  The day we played the starter box.  The unit that is in every novel and represented as the core backbone of the stormcast, and I've seen it day one of the game and that was it.

Other than having more bodies to, you know, act as chaff. It is a valid and important role.

Also, saving 180 points on your battleline IS worth taking Liberators for if you are min/maxing for other areas of your army. And exaggerating that badly to try to prove a point while simultaneously being incorrect ("there will never be another reason to take normal chaff") doesn't look good. IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Auticus said:

I went out and painted a stormcast army for new players to use, and it has 20 liberators in it, and the first comment on the fb group was "why are you making new people take liberators, you're teaching them how to play wrong".

Anytime I hear someone saying "You're playing it wrong" or similar to that effect, I just try to take pity on them and move on with my life (hence why I don't play 40K anymore).  Until the actual rules of the game are broken, intentionally or not, no one gets to say "that's the wrong way to play", and even then the rules just show you the "official" way to play.

It's a GAME, made up of small toy soldiers and monsters and tanks that is played for fun.  Age of Sigmar in particular is designed so abstractly in its core rules that it is more open to house rules and add-ons than other systems.  I can accuse other players of "playing wrong" in my area, but that would only be because of their nasty gaming attitudes and poor sportsmanship, not their use of the rules or the army they bring (though I do have issues with that as well most times).  So long as you and your opponent have fun, laugh and smile during the game, and shake hands afterwards, then the game was played RIGHT.  There is no greater indication of a good game than with both players actually playing and enjoying the game.

@Auticus, I do find it both ironic and aggravating that your local group wants Matched Play to be the end-all-be-all of wargaming but don't want players to follow the restrictions of the game by taking the basic troops that actually facilitate the core concept of Matched Play.  Blech.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Auticus said:

...  They choose the cost effective battleline options.  To them, Liberators are not something you'd ever take because they are garbage.  These are the guys that love that things like stormfiends are battleline because they are so cost effective and easy to use, they can load down on nothing but those if they want.  They are hoping for more powerful elite units becoming battleline.

I was referring to your specific example of Liberators, but we are in agreement in that having so many Battleline choices renders the choices meaningless when there are so many to choose.

Also, are there other choices for Battleline for Stormcast?  It has been so long since I have looked at the General's Handbook that I truly do not know.  Do the Judicators count as Battleline?  Are there other choices?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can they be "garbage" when they are miles better than other equally costed Battleline units. They are plainly good at holding objectives for their cost. 2 wound models with a 4+ rerolling ones or better in cover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

I was referring to your specific example of Liberators, but we are in agreement in that having so many Battleline choices renders the choices meaningless when there are so many to choose.

Also, are there other choices for Battleline for Stormcast?  It has been so long since I have looked at the General's Handbook that I truly do not know.  Do the Judicators count as Battleline?  Are there other choices?

Judicators if stormcast allegiance.

Vanguard Hunters if stormcast and Lord Aquillor (sp?) is general 

Maybe something else with conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, chord said:

Judicators if stormcast allegiance.

Vanguard Hunters if stormcast and Lord Aquillor (sp?) is general 

Maybe something else with conditions.

Judicators are 60 points more per 5... not many competitive lists take an Aquillor general.

Liberators are seen in top tournament lists. Maybe Auticus just doesn't see those lists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

Judicators are 60 points more per 5... not many competitive lists take an Aquillor general.

Liberators are seen in top tournament lists. Maybe Auticus just doesn't see those lists.

He just likes being contrarian it seems. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will be frank, I have never been a huge fan of the 'mixed forces/allies' ever since they started in 40k6th.  I prefer the idea of a bigger book with more options/internal balance attempts/and a cohesive astetic theme.  That being said, wanna throw in my two cents.

I will say I think the whole root of "can battle-line allies be used as my requirements" strikes me as an issue in two camps.  Lets say I choose to play the Stormcast faction because I like the rules/army stuff/elite units etc etc, but rather than take his bodyguard Liberators or Judicators, I wanna take 3 battle-line units of skinks simply for the cheap cost so I can fit in more lightning boys.

Narratively, I find that idea very jarring personally, and I know I can create fluff to justify anything in my personal story, but it dosen't LOOK right... when I see it all splayed out.  I like the idea that Archaeon needs Varrenguard to be his battle-line, or Nagash his Morghasts and I feel the ability to pop cheap troops to take care of all your list 'requirements' is too easy to abuse.  

This is the second point where I feel, unless you have powerful battleline(lets say beast-claw raiders entire army being bloody battleline) folks view them as a tax, and you see that when you see folks running all these minimum battleline squads.  I much prefer the older list building design of WHFB where you were required 25% of your points to be troops, and personally I'd want it to be out of whatever your lists faction is.  I saw in this tread some folks would rather take a squad of 60 gobos than 3 squads of 20.  I would rather take 30 Arkanauts than 3x10.  I just feel the warscroll 'limit' give players less choice in how they want to assemble their lists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Rhellion said:

Liberators are seen in top tournament lists. Maybe Auticus just doesn't see those lists.

Or he doesn't go to those events.  Just a sampling of recent events:

  • LVO 2017 1st Place: Andrew Standiferd’s Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • Holy Wars 2017 1st Place: Shaun Troy's Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • Nashcon 2017 1st Place: Matthew Swinney's Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • AOS Grand Tournament Heat 1 3rd Place: Ben Curry's Stormcast Eternals (3 Units of Liberators)
  • AOS Grand Tournament Heat 2 3rd Place: Les Martin's Stormcast Eternals (1 Unit of Liberators)

The reality is that you will have a hard time finding a top tier SCE list that doesn't include Liberators.  Liberators are an extremely efficient unit and a great 100 point investment.

Correction: Shaun had 3 units of liberators at Holy Wars 2017, not 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, as interesting as this thread is, for the second time, can I please ask that we keep the tone friendly?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. One opinion is not better than others. Discuss what you like. Please don't repeatedly criticise others for what they like. 

Thanks. 

Steve. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Or he doesn't go to those events.  Just a sampling of recent events:

  • LVO 2017 1st Place: Andrew Standiferd’s Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • Holy Wars 2017 1st Place: Shaun Troy's Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • Nashcon 2017 1st Place: Matthew Swinney's Stormcast Eternals (2 Units of Liberators)
  • AOS Grand Tournament Heat 1 3rd Place: Ben Curry's Stormcast Eternals (3 Units of Liberators)
  • AOS Grand Tournament Heat 2 3rd Place: Les Martin's Stormcast Eternals (1 Unit of Liberators)

The reality is that you will have a hard time finding a top tier SCE list that doesn't include Liberators.  Liberators are an extremely efficient unit and a great 100 point investment.

There you go.

And there is a difference between saying you don't see them at your local store / in your region and saying there is no reason to take them and they are garbage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Rhellion said:

Judicators are 60 points more per 5... not many competitive lists take an Aquillor general.

Liberators are seen in top tournament lists. Maybe Auticus just doesn't see those lists.

I think Judicators and Liberators both have their place depending on the battleplan or play style.

If I'm looking to hold objectives or tie up large monsters 10 liberators and multiple +1 save buffing helps turn them into a tar pit.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, chord said:

I think Judicators and Liberators both have their place depending on the battleplan or play style.

If I'm looking to hold objectives or tie up large monsters 10 liberators and multiple +1 save buffing helps turn them into a tar pit.  

If I'm looking to write an Aetherstrike list I use 2 Judicator, 1 Liberator... Judicators for formation, Liberator for the cheaper 3rd battleline to fit the formation and the Stardrake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Destruction preview is anything to go by it looks like you'll be able to avoid spamming horde infantry by having a single horde eg of gobbos and filling the other battleline slots with BL if units eg Cave Squigs and Squig Hoppers.

This is ideal for people who want to take a big unit or two but still want to finish the game in a reasonable amount of time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...