How precise does WYSIWYG have to be?

[Kugane]

Hello,

so I'm in the process of converting my death army, and among other conversions, my chariots and such are getting some new crew members added to them to replace the outdated skeletons. I noticed however that its quite hard to fit 2 skeletons in a chariot and they look quite cramped up together. Even fitting 4 crew members in a Khemrian warsphinx is quite a challenge. I checked the unit description and noticed it quite specifically states chariots are manned by 2 skeletons and warsphinxes by 4 crew members. Are these units still tournament legal if they were to have just 1 (or 2 for the sphinx) crew member(s) inside them?

I also noticed that many times older units have weapons that are not listed on the warscroll (for example Necropolis Knights with axes rather than spears for example). Are these useable as is, or do their weapons need to be swapped out?

 

[TheOtherJosh]

That likely depends on the tournament.

So a generic answer here won't help. Check with the TO for the tournament for your best answer.

[deynon]

If you have similar units with different weapons they have to be perfectly distinguishable. 

About the heroes, doing tournaments foten till a couple years ago all my models, even hero where modified to have even the accessories perfectly. It happened to meet some poor sportive guys who wanted to win some games with really strict WYSIWYG to other people, I simply made them noticing that if they dare they would have to beg not to meet meotherways none of their models would have  passed the investigation made by me if they insisted cause even rings, and specifics were on my armies so...

Usually doesn't happen the situation described, they are really rare limit cases, in more than thousands tournaments it happened only twice.

Anyway you have to make clear what is waht for the opponent, it's a respect to them. Then you can heavy modifying and so on, but everything has to be not confusionary.

[Farthestgoose]

I have a similar question as a player considering a move from friendly games to the competitive scene.

The warscroll for my grot spider riders states that 'some riders are also armed with Spider-bows'. The kit comes with 7 bows for 10 grots. In a tournament would my unit only be considered to have 7 bows as that's what's modelled? Would I need to buy some more bits if I wanted to get maximum shooting out of the unit?

[Kugane]

2 minutes ago, Farthestgoose said:

I have a similar question as a player considering a move from friendly games to the competitive scene.

The warscroll for my grot spider riders states that 'some riders are also armed with Spider-bows'. The kit comes with 7 bows for 10 grots. In a tournament would my unit only be considered to have 7 bows as that's what's modelled? Would I need to buy some more bits if I wanted to get maximum shooting out of the unit?

I think it has the same ruling as stuff like battlestandard bearers still counting as if they have the weapons of the main unit, but it really depends how nit-picky your opponent is going to be. To be safe you could just convert some bows onto them? You could probably even toss a random bow on the base or something, just for representation.

[Farthestgoose]

19 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I think it has the same ruling as stuff like battlestandard bearers still counting as if they have the weapons of the main unit, but it really depends how nit-picky your opponent is going to be. To be safe you could just convert some bows onto them? You could probably even toss a random bow on the base or something, just for representation.

Now that's interesting, I've always assumed that BSBs don't count as having weapons unless specifically modelled on. I assume most reasonable gamers treat them as having the basic unit weapons then?

[Malakree]

So the way I explain my stance on it to people is the following.

Don't take the ******.

If you have a unit of skeletons where 39 of them have spears and 1 has a sword, the unit has spears. If you have a unit which has 19 spears and 21 swords, you can kinda swing it either way but make sure you say before the game exactly what weapons the unit has. Then when it comes to removing models remove the ones with the "wrong" weapons first, if when that unit gets down to 19 models it has all swords when you claimed the unit had spears, It's guna irritate me.

Games Workshop games are normally Gentlemen's Games, treat your opponent with respect, be very clear if there is any ambiguity and try not to be a jackass.

If in doubt check with your tournament organiser and then your opponent.

If you are still worried learn how to magnetise your models. A good example would be a GKoTG where magnetising it allows you to remove the GK, put him on his own base and then have a GK and TG separately.

 

1 hour ago, Farthestgoose said:

Now that's interesting, I've always assumed that BSBs don't count as having weapons unless specifically modelled on. I assume most reasonable gamers treat them as having the basic unit weapons then?

Yep it's actually in an FAQ I believe. The same with drummers.

[Farthestgoose]

Thanks Malakree. Really useful answer and the sensible approach that I would like to take too.

Cheers  

[someone2040]

No-one is going to blink there eyes at 3 guys having the wrong equipment. Especially if they're the command group, or all of the same type of models have the same equipment.

 

But just remember. The onus is on you, to make sure your opponent understands what your models are equip with. AoS is a very dynamic and fluid game. It's extremely unlike old Warhammer where models were always removed from the back of a unit. In AoS, there are no 'sides' of a unit. You often remove the ones at the 'back' (or closer to your side of the board), but quite frequently, you'll remove models from the sides of units, or even from the 'front' if you get engaged from an angle you weren't expecting.

Then you've got units with special models mixed in. Command models and special weaponry make people think about what models they want to remove.

 

So do try and have as many models in the unit armed with the correct weaponry. It only makes things simpler on yourself and your opponent.

 

For the record, I hate the 51-49 rule. It reeks to me of people trying to play for $$$ advantage. It basically only exists because every other number that could be chosen to represent the 'majority' of a unit, would be an arbitrary choice made by a TO. It's basically tournament gamer heaven to have such a rule, because they can change out their unit kits by just swapping 2 models around. 

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, someone2040 said:

No-one is going to blink there eyes at 3 guys having the wrong equipment. Especially if they're the command group, or all of the same type of models have the same equipment.

 

But just remember. The onus is on you, to make sure your opponent understands what your models are equip with. AoS is a very dynamic and fluid game. It's extremely unlike old Warhammer where models were always removed from the back of a unit. In AoS, there are no 'sides' of a unit. You often remove the ones at the 'back' (or closer to your side of the board), but quite frequently, you'll remove models from the sides of units, or even from the 'front' if you get engaged from an angle you weren't expecting.

Then you've got units with special models mixed in. Command models and special weaponry make people think about what models they want to remove.

 

So do try and have as many models in the unit armed with the correct weaponry. It only makes things simpler on yourself and your opponent.

 

For the record, I hate the 51-49 rule. It reeks to me of people trying to play for $$$ advantage. It basically only exists because every other number that could be chosen to represent the 'majority' of a unit, would be an arbitrary choice made by a TO. It's basically tournament gamer heaven to have such a rule, because they can change out their unit kits by just swapping 2 models around. 

I find the 51-49 rule interesting though and it's the first time I've seen it. Up until now I always was told "no" if I wanted to field my 10 sword skeletons among one of my 30 spear horde. Is that 51/49 thing an official ruling?

[someone2040]

5 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I find the 51-49 rule interesting though and it's the first time I've seen it. Up until now I always was told "no" if I wanted to field my 10 sword skeletons among one of my 30 spear horde. Is that 51/49 thing an official ruling?

No, but it is very common in games that have 'rank fillers' like old Warhammer and Kings of War. In fact,

 

In Age of Sigmar, I don't think that has propagated through as much because of the reasons I stated above. In more dyanmic and fluid games, it's much more important to make sure you have your models equip properly so there's no confusion when it comes to removing models. This becomes an even more important case when you've got units like 'Ardboyz and Tzaangors where each model may have different equipment.

 

I think if you went to many tournaments they would rule WYISWYG these days, which generally prevents you from taking mixed units and counting it as one equipment choice.

 

So I think luckily it's something that hasn't taken on in Age of Sigmar. I think it's absolutely fine in friendly games, especially if you want to test out new builds and the like. But it can definitely cause confusion, and the easiest way to prevent it is to make sure your models are equip correctly.

[Kugane]

4 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

No, but it is very common in games that have 'rank fillers' like old Warhammer and Kings of War. In fact,

 

In Age of Sigmar, I don't think that has propagated through as much because of the reasons I stated above. In more dyanmic and fluid games, it's much more important to make sure you have your models equip properly so there's no confusion when it comes to removing models. This becomes an even more important case when you've got units like 'Ardboyz and Tzaangors where each model may have different equipment.

 

I think if you went to many tournaments they would rule WYISWYG these days, which generally prevents you from taking mixed units and counting it as one equipment choice.

 

So I think luckily it's something that hasn't taken on in Age of Sigmar. I think it's absolutely fine in friendly games, especially if you want to test out new builds and the like. But it can definitely cause confusion, and the easiest way to prevent it is to make sure your models are equip correctly.

I see! Fair enough. Thank you for the info. I guess I'll stick with properly equipped units in that case.

[EMMachine]

Like others already said, I think its as strict as you and your opponent handle it. WYSIWYG is mostly a reminder what sort of equipment your units have. After there is one weapon line for all Skeletons on a Warsphinx (not per model) it wouldn't make a difference if there are 3 or 4 models up there. Only if models could be variable it would be some sort of reminder.

I think, my project "Faithful of Eloni"should be some sort of grey area in case of WYSIWYG, after I don't use the original models (more conversions and kitbashes with 32mm Bases instead of 25mm Bases after some Models only fit on 32m  after GW don't have human models that looks like Citizens of the Realm Ghyran). But in the most cases the weapons are correkt for the warscroll I want to use (but it could also happen that there will be a unit that wouldn't fit that way after I don't think that most of my population would use gun powder Weapons). So perhaps there could be a unit Tribesmen that use a converted version of Marauder Horse Men with Javlins as Free Guild Pistoliers (after the weaponprofile goes in a simular direction and there is no unit for order that would have such weapons). But this point would be a fluff thing and luckily I don't want to play tournaments with that army (so who cares, it's a funproject for my narrative).

10 hours ago, Farthestgoose said:

Now that's interesting, I've always assumed that BSBs don't count as having weapons unless specifically modelled on. I assume most reasonable gamers treat them as having the basic unit weapons then?

Like Malakree said, its part of the FAQ that they have the same equipment like the other models. If they shouldn't have a weapon  there would perhaps be a weaponline (punches & kicks) with values and in the description would be mentioned that such a model would use "punches & kicks" instead of his regular weapons. We see such things with the champion of a unit that could have another weapon than the rest.

[Farthestgoose]

Thanks to all for the great input. I was planning on leaving the bows off the command models for clarity and I'm glad that that seems sensible to others. I don't want to be gamey, just getting the etiquette right before I take them to a tournament.

[tolstedt]

Always announce your intent to your opponent if something is not as it appears.  If it's within reason, they will say "Ok" and the game will continue.  If they have an issue, then you can adjust.

This game requires this.  It's not chess pieces with which it's clear what everything does.  This is why you can play chess in silence but not Sigmar.

[Farthestgoose]

12 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

This is why you can play chess in silence but not Sigmar.

That and the beer consumption...

[TheOtherJosh]

On 9/13/2017 at 5:10 PM, Farthestgoose said:

I have a similar question as a player considering a move from friendly games to the competitive scene.

The warscroll for my grot spider riders states that 'some riders are also armed with Spider-bows'. The kit comes with 7 bows for 10 grots. In a tournament would my unit only be considered to have 7 bows as that's what's modelled? Would I need to buy some more bits if I wanted to get maximum shooting out of the unit?

It has a Champion, a Musician and a Standard Bearer.

Scroll says: Everyone has spears and shields. "Some Riders are also armed with spider bows."

Putting bows on the others, but making sure that there are stuff like quivers on the ones that don't have them. Alternately, a bow made from greenstuff (model it over the shoulder or on the back of the spider) would more than suffice if you feel there might be questions.

[Kramer]

9 hours ago, Farthestgoose said:

That and the beer consumption...

I can drink in silemce....  

[Farthestgoose]

On 14/09/2017 at 11:28 PM, Kramer said:

I can drink in silemce....  

We are very different people ?