Freepeople 'Hold the Line' command ability (not another cannon question :p )

[Josh]

Was talking with a friend and obviously it says you cant move or shoot if you gain the ability

does that mean that if a unit with HTL and used its piper ability to stand and shoot cant pile in to a combat (stand and shoot if an enemy unit ends within 3" of the unit containing a piper) (3" being they get pulled into combat)

I can see both sides of the coin, piling in is a move and you cant move with HTL, but if you were not allowed to pile in would GW go to the trouble of pointing it out?

just not sure and wanted to get some others views on it

[MrCharisma]

Hold the Line means your units can no MOVE or CHARGE during your turn.

You can still pile in, and Piper abilities would-be triggered on your opponents turn. 

Your units are free to counter charge with Freeguild Guard or stand and shoot with handgunners/crossbowmen. You would lose the steady aim benefit on your handgunners though if you activated your Piper ability. 

[Duck1986]

53 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

Hold the Line means your units can no MOVE or CHARGE during your turn.

You can still pile in, and Piper abilities would-be triggered on your opponents turn. 

Your units are free to counter charge with Freeguild Guard or stand and shoot with handgunners/crossbowmen. You would lose the steady aim benefit on your handgunners though if you activated your Piper ability. 

Sounds reasonable! I'm unsure why you lose the steady aim though with the piper ability?  I don't have the warscroll infront of me but that's the shooting at the charging unit ability isn't it?  Add you don't move and haven't in the turn before surely it counts? 

[MrCharisma]

9 minutes ago, Duck1986 said:

Sounds reasonable! I'm unsure why you lose the steady aim though with the piper ability?  I don't have the warscroll infront of me but that's the shooting at the charging unit ability isn't it?  Add you don't move and haven't in the turn before surely it counts? 

The rule says that you get the buff if there are no enemy models within 3", however; you need enemy models to end their charge within 3" to trigger the Piper.

[nuttyknatty]

I play it that no moving means no moving at all. So, no pile-in and no counter charge.

But I've had plenty of opponents sportingly try to argue with me! And I can see their point (and @MrCharisma's), but I'm happy, unless I can find a specific ruling to allow it, to hamstring myself!?

[Duck1986]

6 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

The rule says that you get the buff if there are no enemy models within 3", however; you need enemy models to end their charge within 3" to trigger the Piper.

Ah I see now. I was seeing it as the unit beginning its charge outside 3'' so therefore bring eligible to be shot at... But I think you're correct that the wording is when they finish... Well that makes life harder!

[Duck1986]

3 hours ago, The Nameless One said:

I play it that no moving means no moving at all. So, no pile-in and no counter charge.

But I've had plenty of opponents sportingly try to argue with me! And I can see their point (and @MrCharisma's), but I'm happy, unless I can find a specific ruling to allow it, to hamstring myself!?

I think it depends on how loosely you view the wording "move or charge". In MrCharisma's answer above, I think it refers to those words as the phase of your turn, as opposed to physically moving. I'd be inclined to agree, but it's very up for debate! 

[WoollyMammoth]

It was likely not written to prevent pile in, but *gasp* they didn't write the rule very well. They should have stated that the unit may not move "in the movement phase".

Rules lawyers can cite the fact that pile in counts as a move and therefore you may not pile in. I would never actually tell a player you cannot pile in, even in a competitive environment.  I have a friend that frequently holds the line, and I have thought of this while he was piling in, but I never brought up the rule to him because, its silly and I'm not trying to exploit the rules to make the game harder on him.

You can send this feedback to the Facebook team but, knowing the FAQ writers I would just wait until someone tells you that you cannot pile in, then flip a coin in disagreement ... this is a safer bet. 

[Josh]

im honestly happy either way

but i can understand both views on the rule and just not sure on whats the 'correct' interpretation here

im fairly new to AOS so who am i asking on FB? GW official or something?

[MrCharisma]

I guess the argument for the rules lawyers would be: is a pile in a move?

I'd define a move as an action that occurs in the movement phase and is eligible for a run. 

I'd work with what @WoollyMammoth said, I would just do it until I'm told otherwise... then flip a coin. 

If the rule was that strict you could argue that a model fleeing in battleshock is a move, so they shouldn't leave combat ;-)

[tea_wild_owl]

There is an faq for eternal guard's 'fortress of boughts' effect (add +1 to hit/wound/save but the unit cannot move until the next hero phase). it was stated by gw that a pile in is a move and so the unit cannot pile in. I think the same can be applied to the "hold your line" rule, so you cannot move/pile in (during your turn) as stated in the rule.

[Josh]

awesome! cheers

[WoollyMammoth]

Yes a pile in is confirmed to be a move, but they were not thinking about this when they wrote hold the line - or Fortress of Boughs, honestly. For Fortress of Boughs, the unit has 2" range so its not as bad. These are more disappointing examples where you can obviously tell that the FAQ writers don't really understand the game that they are writing rules for.

[Josh]

eh rules are rules, idk who needs to know about this from an internal level so if someone wants to let them know feel free ^^

[someone2040]

6 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Yes a pile in is confirmed to be a move, but they were not thinking about this when they wrote hold the line - or Fortress of Boughs, honestly. For Fortress of Boughs, the unit has 2" range so its not as bad. These are more disappointing examples where you can obviously tell that the FAQ writers don't really understand the game that they are writing rules for.

Eh, I think it's a fine ruling. 

In general, it covers all types of movement which is a good thing. If you have a rule that says you cannot move in the movement phase, it means you could move in the shooting phase or hero phase. The expectation of Hold the Line is, you stick to where you are and stand in place so you can fight better as a unit. So if suddenly you could move during the Hero or Shooting phase, it breaks that idea (Not that I can think of any rules off the top of my head which allow this for Freeguild).

 

I think in this case, it would be better off to re-word Hold the Line rather than redo the FAQ. You could say "This unit may not move for any reason except to pile-in" if you wanted to allow pile-ins.

[Duck1986]

I spotted today that it only states you cant move on your turn, but it lasts until your next hero phase. Does that mean that pile-in is allowed on your opponents turn?