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Killax

Khorgos Khul & The Goretide

Question

Killax    1,261

EDIT:

Issue resolved.

See: 




Another question around this fellow.

Khorgos Khuls description tells us that if you thake a Goretide Battalion (assuming GW means The Goretide) Khorgos Khul must replace the Mighty Lord of Khorne.
For Matched play we have the costs for the Mighty Lord of Khorne, The Goretide Warscroll Battalion and all other requirements. What we do not have is a cost for Khorgos Khul.

1. Does this mean I cannot play my The Goretide Battalion for Matched play right now? As Khorgos Khul MUST be part of it.
2. Does this mean I cannot play my The Goretide Battalion without Khorgos Khul anymore? As Khorgos Khul MUST be part of it.

Edited by Killax

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24 answers to this question

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Chikout    376
3 hours ago, Killax said:

Awnser:

1. No you can, he costs 200.

2. The Goretide now enforces Khul. 

2000 point lists functional worth 1940. Thanks :(

This is not true at all. If you take Khul and goretide, Khul must lead it, but you do not have to take Khul. You can still take a generic mighty Lord of Khorne as the leader of the goretide. I can see why this might be misleading but the rule is on the Khul warscroll not the goretide warscroll so  if you don't take Khul at all that rule does not come into effect. I hope that is clear.

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Killax    1,261

Awnser:

1. No you can, he costs 200.

2. The Goretide now enforces Khul. 

2000 point lists functional worth 1940. Thanks :(

Edited by Killax
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Jharen    283
11 minutes ago, Chikout said:

This is not true at all. If you take Khul and goretide, Khul must lead it, but you do not have to take Khul. You can still take a generic mighty Lord of Khorne as the leader of the goretide. I can see why this might be misleading but the rule is on the Khul warscroll not the goretide warscroll so  if you don't take Khul at all that rule does not come into effect. I hope that is clear.

This is how I think it should work too.

To further back up this understanding of it...

The new warscroll states: "If you take a Goretide warscroll battalion, then Khorgus Khul must be taken instead of the Mighty Lord of Khorne that normally leads the battalion."

To dissect that wording a bit:  "the Mighty Lord of Khorne that normally leads the battalion"

This seems to indicate that there is a situation of normality in which a Mighty Lord of Khorne leads the battalion.  This situation would obviously be one in which Khul is not present in the army list and thus not requiring the use of this rule.

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Killax    1,261
10 hours ago, Chikout said:

But you do not have to take Khul.

You can still take a generic mighty Lord of Khorne as the leader of the goretide. 

You can choose to not thake Khul. However one of the few rules you cannot ignore in Age of Sigmar are descriptions. They always have a prominent role within the game and are what you could consider hard rules for Matched and Narrative play aswell. For example, you cannot choose to have a unit filled with unit champions, because the description does not allow it. Likewise Bloodletters have hellblades, not because you can choose to not give them but because the description tells they do.

So no, you cannot thake a generic Mighty Lord of Khorne as the leader of The Goretide. Because the description of Khul specifically states that The Goretide requires him if you thake the Battalion at all.

Naamloos.jpg 

What it does not state is that the Battalion has the optional choice between Khul and a Mighty Lord of Khorne. As above, this Description alters The Goretide Warscroll Battalion aswell. Because it specifically states you must include Khul the moment you have a Goretide Battalion.

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Jharen    283

It's bad wording, and we don't have precedence for a situation like this.  There's not going to be a 'right' answer here unless GW speaks up and says so.  But there's always this...

I can chose to ignore his warscroll in a game I am not using him in.  I can do this because the rules and FAQ support me doing this.  So long as my opponent also does not have a problem with me doing this then there is no problem as we can get on to playing our game.  AoS lets us do a lot of things, but we mostly house rule those things around in favor of a better playing experience.  Things such as measuring from the base, using the most recent warscrolls, etc. are all house rules.

Talk to your local group, friends, TO, whoever and come to an agreement that works for your situation.  That's what we all do anyhow, and what every TO does when they make special rulings in their events, and what we do at home or at the FLGS to increase our enjoyment of our games.

 

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Killax    1,261
On 2017-6-18 at 3:07 PM, Jharen said:

I can chose to ignore his warscroll in a game I am not using him in.  I can do this because the rules and FAQ support me doing this.  

Which source do you have that supports this?

The issue indeed can be resolved locally and has to be because of the bad wording. The thing is that this also boils down to the use and ignoring of older and newer Warscrolls. What this does is increase possible confusions of game states.

The thing is that to my knowledge there is no rule or FAQ that allows you to ignore Warscroll Descriptions. If there was, we could field all Blood Warriors with Bloodglaives but we can't, not even for Narrative play, because the Description tells us to do this.

Likewise, Khorgos Khuls description tells us you must use him for The Goretide the moment you include a Goretide Warscroll Battalion for your army. It is not a a may and suggests that The Goretide is altered because Khorgos Khul now has his own Warscroll and from a narrative standpoint Khorgos Khul always leads the The Goretide.

Edited by Killax

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Zerthin    5

Actually there is good example why Khul MUST be taken.

Summoning. It's only on the warscrolls and yet it's stated that all eligible mages know summoning spells. We don't have to include unit X to be able to summon it. I'm afraid Khul should be interpreted the very same way.

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Jharen    283

If you feel that you are required to involve every warscroll and rulebook and supplement in every game you play, then that's fine and you are apparently required to take Khul as part of the Goretide now.  Have fun with that type of game and all the power to you in doing so but it's going to get very difficult to do so as time goes on.

Age of Sigmar is not a tight, easily packaged, game system.  It seems like that's very much what some people want it to be, but it is not and probably never will be in this iteration.  It is a game of multiple supplemental materials that may or may not be a part of any one game.  I cannot approach this game as if there is a singular source for all rules that will always be in effect in ever game I play.  It will always change based off where I am playing, who I am playing against, and what their rules are and which sources they are using in combination with mine.  We can try to standardize it all we want, but GW is pushing for more and more new players to come into the hobby all the time and they are not requiring them to purchase or find every new warscroll or published material in order to do so.  Pick up and play is their new motto.

If I bring an army to a table, and I bring with me models and official warscrolls for those models, that is what I am using and those are the rules I am using for THAT game.  I may also be using a GH for that game.  I may instead be using a Skirmish book for that game.  I may not be using either of those things.  I may only be using the 4-page rules for that game.  Sometimes I am using a battletome, other times I am not.  Sometimes compendium scrolls are in use, sometimes they aren't allowed.  The point is the only rules that apply are those required for that game I am playing in that situation at that moment.  If I don't bring a supplement, and my opponent has so expectation of me to bring that supplement, then there is no problem.   Warscrolls are just supplements to a game, and they are only needed if they are going to be part of that game.  I don't worry about goblin warscrolls if no ones bringing goblins to the party.  I don't worry about daemon warscrolls until someone involves them in the game.  Likewise, I am not going to worry about Khorgus Khul's warscroll unless he is in the game.

Now this may not be the case in a tournament, that's fine.  You take up with your TO what warscrolls, supplements, and rules are going to be in use at that event.  Same goes for your FLGS or wherever else you play.  If they want to always enforce every published piece of text GW puts out then fine, but that's going to get increasingly difficult to do as time goes on and we see more and more alternative warscrolls pushed out and more books pushed out.

 

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Wraith01    97

If you are taking a Mighty Lord of Khorne to lead the Gortide Battalion why wouldn't you want to use Khul? He does everything the regular Mighty Lord does plus more. It's an upgrade.

Edited by Wraith01

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Xasz    75
2 hours ago, Wraith01 said:

If you are taking a Mighty Lord of Khorne to lead the Gortide Battalion why wouldn't you want to use Khul? He does everything the regular Mighty Lord does plus more. It's an upgrade.

Did you even read the scroll?

He's 60 points more expensive, has the exact same statline and rules as a generic MLoK with the only difference being that he has Aqshy's Bane which you would get anyway via the Goretide and he cannot take a command trait or artifact due to being a named character.

So, he is actually is NOT an upgrade, he costs 200 points and is less capable than a 140 point model without the faintest touch of being unique.

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Xasz    75
Just now, valenswift said:

Where did the 200 points value come from and do we know how much the Vandus Hammerhand is?

From the Azyr-App.

Vandus is 280.

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Jharen    283
15 hours ago, Killax said:

Which source do you have that supports this?

From the first page of the 4-page rules:

"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."

 

From the FAQ:

Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently published version?

A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may be more convenient for your opponent if you use the most recently published version, especially if the earlier version is no longer readily available.

 

So unless someone can find where a rule is that says we must use all rules on all warscrolls even if the warscroll is not going to be used in the game being played then I'm going with the "I can ignore his warscroll if I want to" option.

Furthermore, summoning abilities on warscrolls has no bearing on this.  Their warscroll only comes into effect when you intend to use it in the game being played.  Be that a choice you make in advance or a choice you make on the fly, the moment you bring that into play you will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

 

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Phantajisto    11

How is it that the MLOK "normally leads the (Goretide) battalion", if Korghos Khul must always lead it? For the sake of not ruining a perfectly good battalion, I would say that the only time the MLOK can't lead the Goretide is when Khul is in the army. It's way too complicated allowing new scrolls to change old ones. Why don't they just FAQ the Goretide to increase its cost by 60pts if they think it's overpowered?

I really have no clue what GW's intentions are with Khul... They took a unit that wasn't particularly popular in the first place (but had it's fun moments with the axe rule) and removed it's artefact access, added a rule you could already get from a battalion anyway, and increased it's points by over 1/3... 

All I can think of, is that someone at GW has played with the Goretide and stacked the trait, artefact, and buffs on the MLOK to make him a killing machine, he carved up the enemy army and so they decided he was overpowered for 140pts in those circumstances and made a botched attempt to tone him down...

For me the whole point of the big battalions is that they can be very powerful because you have to meet all kinds of requirements to get their buffs, effectively tailoring your whole army and strategy around that battalion. They can't start changing them a few months down the line and messing up everyone's armies...

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Louzi    51
1 hour ago, Jharen said:

From the first page of the 4-page rules:

"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."

 

From the FAQ:

Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently published version?

A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may be more convenient for your opponent if you use the most recently published version, especially if the earlier version is no longer readily available.

 

So unless someone can find where a rule is that says we must use all rules on all warscrolls even if the warscroll is not going to be used in the game being played then I'm going with the "I can ignore his warscroll if I want to" option.

Furthermore, summoning abilities on warscrolls has no bearing on this.  Their warscroll only comes into effect when you intend to use it in the game being played.  Be that a choice you make in advance or a choice you make on the fly, the moment you bring that into play you will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

 

It's amazing, that people dont want to understand the easiest wordings...I dont want to argue with you, because it has no sense. You want to read it that way (ignoring Khuls warscroll), so it has to be like that!

For the rest: Killax is 100% right. If you are asking yourself, why GW is doing that:

1. backdoor nerf for goretide

or

2. they are all drunk.

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Xasz    75
1 hour ago, Louzi said:

2. they are all drunk.

There is your answer.

It is impossible to take these scrolls seriously.

They seem rushed, poorly worded and not thought through at all. I really hope it is the work of a trainee between 40k deadlines/releases and not the actual rules-team.

Edited by Xasz
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Jharen    283
38 minutes ago, Louzi said:

It's amazing, that people dont want to understand the easiest wordings...I dont want to argue with you, because it has no sense. You want to read it that way (ignoring Khuls warscroll), so it has to be like that!

Not quite sure what spurred this type of response from you but I felt the need to clarify something in case anything I posted previously was confused as being hostile.  That was not my intent.

We're debating a rules situation here, arguing our points is how we make progress so long as we aren't flinging insults or going in circles.  So far I have continued to post any new thoughts or information I have on the topic, as have others.  We learn from this experience hopefully whether we're right or wrong in the end.  I am pretty willing to change my view when enough evidence is provided concerning a topic.  I happily am here to learn from others and share in discussions over rules.

I get Killax's point of view from what he's posted thus far. I understand where he's coming from with it, and I respect his opinion, but I still disagree with it for the time being and have posted why that is.  That doesn't mean I have chosen to ignore him or disregard what he has to say or read things how I want them to be.  I look forward to any further information he or anyone else can bring to the table concerning this.

I posted words from the 4-page rules that I feel support my current stance and explained why I feel they support that stance. If you (or anyone else) disagrees with my understanding of those rules then I encourage you to share why that is so that I can get another point of view on it, and continue to progress the discussion in a productive manner.

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chord    411

personally I'm ok with not taking him as part of goretide.  The Blades of Khorne book was released not long ago and has no reference to this new warscroll and update.  it can't be expected for every player to know every warscroll, or even have the app. (I don't, doesn't work on my device).  

Unless they want to re-issue an updated to BOK or update the FAQ. 

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chord    411
On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 5:28 AM, Killax said:

If you thake a Goretide warscroll battalion then Khul must be taken instead of MLoK.

Ergo, you thake Goretide, you thake Khul.

The wording doesnt leave room for an alternate. Basically stating The Goretide now is altered.

It does not say If you thake Khul and The Goretide this happens. It states if you thake The Goretide this happens.

*looks at my Blades of Khorne book*  nope everything seems like it was before.  

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Killax    1,261
1 hour ago, chord said:

*looks at my Blades of Khorne book*  nope everything seems like it was before.  

I don't even know what kind of awnser this is supposed to be?

e.g.
"looks at Chaos Battletome Bloodbound" nope everything seems like it was before.

- Inserts units made up of 30 Bloodreavers for 190 points, 20 from the Bloodbound Battletome, 10 from the Blades of Khorne. I'll make saves with those 10 and remove the ones without...
- Ignores current wording on Mighty Lord of Khorne and includes Bloodbound Battletome and FAQ wording, same 140 point General can now unbind as many times as he like...

If we are going to ignore the latest updated descriptions, costs and rules, feel free to persue that line of thought. 

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chord    411
17 minutes ago, Killax said:

I don't even know what kind of awnser this is supposed to be?

e.g.
"looks at Chaos Battletome Bloodbound" nope everything seems like it was before.

- Inserts units made up of 30 Bloodreavers for 190 points, 20 from the Bloodbound Battletome, 10 from the Blades of Khorne. I'll make saves with those 10 and remove the ones without...
- Ignores current wording on Mighty Lord of Khorne and includes Bloodbound Battletome and FAQ wording, same 140 point General can now unbind as many times as he like...

If we are going to ignore the latest updated descriptions, costs and rules, feel free to persue that line of thought. 

Maybe GW should do a better job of announcing, hey we just changed a battalion warscroll with another warscroll that was released.

But I don't see them doing anything of the nature.

Maybe they have outsourced the whole AOS warscrolls division or something as it seems they are not taking their decisions into perspective. 

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Killax    1,261
3 minutes ago, chord said:

Maybe GW should do a better job of announcing, hey we just changed a battalion warscroll with another warscroll that was released.

But I don't see them doing anything of the nature.

Maybe they have outsourced the whole AOS warscrolls division or something as it seems they are not taking their decisions into perspective. 

From a narrative standpoint the implication of Khorgos Khul always leading the Goretide makes 100% sence, the Goretide is the name of his army, the Goretide is his army.

What I see and I see it more often these days is that the team that creates these Warscrolls continue them for Narrative designs. Logical because out of the 3 playstyles only Matched play cares about this change.

However, what it still does enforce is using Khul with the Goretide. Perhaps GW will change this in the future but ignoring descriptions is not something we as players are allowed to do. Not in Open, Narrative or Matched play.

Edited by Killax

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Killax    1,261

Update, issue resolved by Games Workshop.

The new wording states:
If you take Korghos Khul and a Goretide warscroll battalion, then Korghos Khul must be taken instead of the Mighty Lord of Khorne that normally leads the battalion.

Source:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/ENG_Korghos-Khul.pdf

Topic can be closed!

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Killax    1,261
On 2017-6-18 at 1:54 AM, Jharen said:

This is how I think it should work too.

The new warscroll states: "If you take a Goretide warscroll battalion, then Khorgus Khul must be taken instead of the Mighty Lord of Khorne that normally leads the battalion."

If you thake a Goretide warscroll battalion then Khul must be taken instead of MLoK.

Ergo, you thake Goretide, you thake Khul.

The wording doesnt leave room for an alternate. Basically stating The Goretide now is altered.

It does not say If you thake Khul and The Goretide this happens. It states if you thake The Goretide this happens.

Edited by Killax
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