Khorgus khul

[Arkiham]

His rules state he can pile in 8" and attack every hero phase.

So, he can move 8" towards nearest enemy every hero phase? 

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

 

 way its written is all the permission you need to pile in

Exact and in order to do have that you need to be within 3" of an enemy model.

Again the in-game practice shows you the advantage of this rule. Remember the fact that he can do this in the Hero phase also means that after that attack occured you can once again pile in as normal in the Combat phase. It allows him to hop from unit to unit quite often.

[Jharen]

5 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Precisely.

The ability says you can pile in up to 8" in hero phase. 

Ok I'll pile in 8" towards your closest enemy.

 

If it said as if it was combat phase then the faq regarding restrictions on abilities usage would come into play. But it doesnt.

Yeah I'm very much in agreement with you now, it's just taken a mess of dissecting the rules for my own peace of mind.  Some further explanation to hopefully help others:

The problem is that many of us often mistakenly assume Piling-in is subject to restriction that it is in fact not subject to.  Piling-in only requires that you move closer to the nearest enemy model.  It's the Attack Sequence (a combined step of pile-in and attack with all melee weapons) that requires us to complete a charge or be within 3" of an enemy model.  Myself and others probably often merge these two ideas in our head because that's normally how it plays out in game.

The Attack Sequence requires us to have completed a charge or be within 3" of an enemy model, NOT the Pile-in.  While we get a free Pile-in move of 3" during that sequence, it is not exclusive to that sequence and can appear on it's own as its own action.

[Chikout]

Quick sub question. If Khul has the pile in ability and the goretide battalion grants the pile in ability, can he do it twice?

[Jharen]

31 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Quick sub question. If Khul has the pile in ability and the goretide battalion grants the pile in ability, can he do it twice?

As I see it, RAW, yes... until we get clarification from GW.

Rules as intended?  Very doubtful and likely to get you dirty looks from across the table.

 

[Dan.Ford]

yes you can pile in twice but that second time will be in the combat phase . So the pile im is only 3" not 8"

[Killax]

3 hours ago, Chikout said:

Quick sub question. If Khul has the pile in ability and the goretide battalion grants the pile in ability, can he do it twice?

Also unknown, as the ability refers to the normal Mighty Lord of Khorne that Khul just replaced.

This Khul "redesign" is a giant mess to be honest.

As for the pile in, also very unclear. Play as you like obviously. Locally I resolved this with The Goretide by having an 8" pile in the moment an enemy is within 3". In addition this previous legal MLoK could charge aswell with a D6" due to the other Battalion ability.

What this in practice lead to is a guy that has some scary potential if left alone too much. However him being a MLoK and nothing more, destroying him never was too difficult for my opponents. It just sometimes happend that this MLoK killed a unit before this occured. By large thanks to Mark of the Destroyer.

[Killax]

23 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

yes you can pile in twice but that second time will be in the combat phase . So the pile im is only 3" not 8"

Well I think the question was in regards to the theoretical option of Khul having Aqshy's Bane twice. Because the ability is on Khul and is granted aswell from the Battalion.

Its a sub-question worthy of it's own topic but it basically is unclear if Khul can basically attack 3 times per turn (excluding Blood Tithe effects). 
- Once because Aqshy's Bane on Khuls Warscroll
- Once because Aqshy's Bane on Goretide Warscroll
- Once because of normal Combat Phase

[Dan.Ford]

I also think that in the hero phase he can pile in 8" 'IF' he is  within 8" of an enemy model.

Its not an auto 8" pile in move towards an enemy model that 15" away for example.

[Killax]

14 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

I also think that in the hero phase he can pile in 8" 'IF' he is  within 8" of an enemy model.

Its not an auto 8" pile in move towards an enemy model that 15" away for example.

The way the 12-2016 FAQ tells us this cannot be done:

Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?
A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise.

In this case, like a Khorgos Khul, has the ability to pile in 8" rather than the standard 3".
His ability does not state he can pile in and attack if their is an enemy unit more than 3" away.

The suggestion that is left so far to me is:
1. In order to Pile in you have to be within 3" of an enemy model.
2. You can Pile in on a succesful charge because in order to succesfully charge you have to be within 1/2" of an enemy model, also making it within 3" (obviously)
3. You can Pile in if you are within 3" of an enemy model even if you do not have LoS to it. 
4. You still must Pile in towards the closest enemy model.
5. Pile in up to 3".

So how does this resolve with Khul? And Aqshy's Bane, this is how we played it:
1. In order to Pile in you have to be within 3" of an enemy model.
2. You can Pile in on a succesful charge because in order to succesfully charge you have to be within 1/2" of an enemy model, also making it within 3" (obviously)
3. You can Pile in if you are within 3" of an enemy model even if you do not have LoS to it. 
4. You still must Pile in towards the closest enemy model.
5. Pile in up to 8".

Some might ask, what are the advantages then? Well with a big base like him in a crowded place finding a spot for him can be difficult. The additional movement you have to pile in allows you to better position him.
Remember he has to pile in towards the closest enemy model, however the path to do so is not specified and can be in all kinds of manners. This also means you can find several positions who that further allow you to attack other units aswell. 

[Arkiham]

24 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

I also think that in the hero phase he can pile in 8" 'IF' he is  within 8" of an enemy model.

Its not an auto 8" pile in move towards an enemy model that 15" away for example.

Then it would say if.. But it doesnt. It just says you can pile in up to 8. It's giving you permission to pile in 8" 

There is no charges or units within certain distance arc required.

 way its written is all the permission you need to pile in

[Arkiham]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

The way the 12-2016 FAQ tells us this cannot be done:

Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?
A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise.

In this case, like a Khorgos Khul, has the ability to pile in 8" rather than the standard 3".
His ability does not state he can pile in and attack if their is an enemy unit more than 3" away.

The suggestion that is left so far to me is:
1. In order to Pile in you have to be within 3" of an enemy model.
2. You can Pile in on a succesful charge because in order to succesfully charge you have to be within 1/2" of an enemy model, also making it within 3" (obviously)
3. You can Pile in if you are within 3" of an enemy model even if you do not have LoS to it. 
4. You still must Pile in towards the closest enemy model.
5. Pile in up to 3".

So how does this resolve with Khul? And Aqshy's Bane, this is how we played it:
1. In order to Pile in you have to be within 3" of an enemy model.
2. You can Pile in on a succesful charge because in order to succesfully charge you have to be within 1/2" of an enemy model, also making it within 3" (obviously)
3. You can Pile in if you are within 3" of an enemy model even if you do not have LoS to it. 
4. You still must Pile in towards the closest enemy model.
5. Pile in up to 8".

Some might ask, what are the advantages then? Well with a big base like him in a crowded place finding a spot for him can be difficult. The additional movement you have to pile in allows you to better position him.
Remember he has to pile in towards the closest enemy model, however the path to do so is not specified and can be in all kinds of manners. This also means you can find several positions who that further allow you to attack other units aswell. 

As i mentioned eailer,  the elf example is a bad example as the actual rule which the faq is from is obvious.

The writing is markably different so shouldn't be used as a comparison or base to judge rules.

This is because it says when he piles in, so by following normal pile in rules he has to had either charged or be within 3"

 

Khuls rule is different. It says "you can pile in"

So permission is given to pile in. No charges etc required. The special rule is the trigger to pile in

 

 

[Arkiham]

5 minutes ago, Jharen said:

The confusion comes from the fact that Piling-in is NORMALLY part of the two step process of Attacking.  But is it exclusive to that process?

1) Pile-in.

2) Attack with all melee weapons.

To be specific the rules state: "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

Note that this is a restriction on the ATTACK (or possibly the 2 step attack sequence?), not a restriction on the specific action of Piling-In.  In fact, Piling-in isn't even stated in that line.  It also states "during the combat phase"  suggesting that this restriction ONLY applies during that phase.

So if an ability states to Pile-in during a phase other than the combat phase, and also fails to state AS IF it were the combat phase, do any of these restrictions still apply?

 

Precisely.

The ability says you can pile in up to 8" in hero phase. 

Ok I'll pile in 8" towards your closest enemy.

 

If it said as if it was combat phase then the faq regarding restrictions on abilities usage would come into play. But it doesnt.

[Arkiham]

Just now, Killax said:

Exact and in order to do have that you need to be within 3" of an enemy model.

Again the in-game practice shows you the advantage of this rule. Remember the fact that he can do this in the Hero phase also means that after that attack occured you can once again pile in as normal in the Combat phase. It allows him to hop from unit to unit quite often.

No, as the rule saying you have to be within 3" is when it says as if the combat phase, the faq supports this. 

 

This does not.

It just says pile in, no mention about as if a particular phase or anything. 

[Killax]

8 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

As i mentioned eailer,  the elf example is a bad example as the actual rule which the faq is from is obvious.

The writing is markably different so shouldn't be used as a comparison or base to judge rules.

This is because it says when he piles in, so by following normal pile in rules he has to had either charged or be within 3"

 

Khuls rule is different. It says "you can pile in"

So permission is given to pile in. No charges etc required. The special rule is the trigger to pile in

 

 

The question at hand is not remarkably different. We have both examples of units that can Pile in beyond the regular set 3" norm. However before you can Pile in you still have to follow the several rules as mentioned above. 

It still does not say that it ignores the rules required to Pile in. It says you can pile in up to 8", however in order to pile in at all you still have to follow rules for piling in, in my opinion.

[Dan.Ford]

10 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Then it would say if.. But it doesnt. It just says you can pile in up to 8. It's giving you permission to pile in 8" 

There is no charges or units within certain distance arc required.

 way its written is all the permission you need to pile in

Hmm true but I would not ask for a ruling at an event for 8" pile in if model was within 8" but I would if he was 9" plus away.

The only defence I would use is that the model has not charged and appeals that it needs to be clearer!!

[Killax]

As per other ruling, if Games Workshop wanted to clearify this as moving up 8" (which they could have done) I believe they would have done so. So it still has to follow the Pile In rules because it is stated as a Pile In as per Combat Phase.

Certainly, Pile in and attack is normally part of the Combat phase. What Aqshy's Bane allows for is to preform this same sequence in the Hero phase.

[Arkiham]

Just now, Killax said:

The question at hand is not remarkably different. We have both examples of units that can Pile in beyond the regular set 3" norm. However before you can Pile in you still have to follow the several rules as mentioned above. 

It still does not say that it ignores the rules required to Pile in. It says you can pile in up to 8", however in order to pile in at all you still have to follow rules 1-4.

But you don't. The ability doesn't have any prerequisites in order to be activated.

Every other pile in ability says. 

"When you pile in", implying you must follow the normal steps.

This doesnt. It says you may pile in 8", Implying that the normal steps aren't required as the ability is saying you can.

I'll attach a few examples, I can't think if more 

[Killax]

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

But you don't. The ability doesn't have any prerequisites in order to be activated.

Pile in and attack still has a prerequisite in order to be resolved, even outside of the Combat Phase. 
 

Quote

Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase. Thee player whose turn it is picks a unit to attack with, then the opposing player must attack with a unit, and so on until all eligible units on both sides have attacked once each. If one side completes all its attacks first, then the other side completes all of its remaining attacks, one unit after another. No unit can be selected to attack more than once in each combat phase.

An attack is split into two steps: first the unit piles in, and then you make attacks with the models in the unit.
 

Step 1 increases from 3" to 8" in this case.

[Jharen]

38 minutes ago, Killax said:

Pile in and attack still has a prerequisite in order to be resolved, even outside of the Combat Phase. 

Arkiham is right.

You are confusing the attack sequence in the combat phase as a prerequisite for piling in.  It is not.  I fully explained this in my previous posts here but I'll try again.

Piling-in means you move towards the closest enemy model.  That is all it means.  There is no inherent requirement to piling in.  It does not mean you attack after, and it does not require that you charged or are within 3" of an enemy model.   It means only that you may move your model X distance towards the closest enemy model.

During the combat phase as part of the attack sequence of steps you are required to have completed a charge or be within 3" of an enemy to Attack. 

Piling in during the hero phase (without addition of "as if it were the combat phase") means that it does not follow the Attack Sequence used in the combat phase.  Thus, you are simply making a Pile-In move on it own, and then making an attack with your melee weapons (Not Attacking as if it were the combat phase).  This is not a normal Attack Sequence at all or it would state "Pile in 8" and attack as if it were the combat phase".

The FAQ question concerning the Griffon example does not apply in this situation.  It is talking about a pile in during the combat phase as part of the attack sequence, which does require you to be within 3" or completed a charge.

[davidslv]

17 hours ago, Chikout said:

Quick sub question. If Khul has the pile in ability and the goretide battalion grants the pile in ability, can he do it twice?

No

[AdamJ]

Hello all. It seems like the warscroll has now been updated to the following on the community website. The link is:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/23/vandus-and-khul-matched-play-points-june22gw-homepage-post-2/

[Arkiham]

Great to see they saw it as a thing of contention. Wonder if they changed goretide wording also.

[rokapoke]

If his rule specifically includes "can pile in and attack", I would expect he can do it if he's within 8" of an enemy unit. Just my personal interpretation. 

[Jharen]

Good call making this post!

To put my point of view in here...

The way I understand it to work is that he still must meet all the requirements of piling in (e.g. Complete a successful charge or be within 3" of an enemy model).  If this is wrong I'd love to know too, because that'd be great for this hero.  I just can't find the rules to back it up.

In so far as I can tell, all movement made in the hero phase still must follow the normal rules for movement.  Piling in is a type of movement that normally happens in the combat phase, thus it must still follow the rules for that type of movement.  This is even clarified in the FAQ to some degree.

Edit: After reading through the rules and discussions in this thread I have changed my stance on this.

[Arkiham]

Normally it says "As if it were the blah blah phase" which is what the faq covers which is special abilities an such

His rule is different.

It just says . He can pile in up to 8"

Doesn't mention like a .....  phase, just says pile in up to 8"