The Green Knight and Matched Play

[Davariel]

Good Evening All, 

So lately I've decided to rebase all the Brets I have lying around and have started thinking about putting together a decent list for 2000 points or so (damn the compendium risk, full speed ahead and all that). This has led me to considering all sorts of options, and one in particular that caught my eye is the Green Knight, due to his unusual deployment and resurrection abilities. The problem? I'm not sure exactly how his self-summoning works in matched play. 

For those not familiar with those filthy compendium units, here's the relevant rule: 

This raises a couple of questions regarding how he works in matched play: 

1) Since he's summoned after the battle starts, the Green Knight would be paid for using reinforcement points. Does this mean he could be used in any Order army (e.g. Sylvaneth) without breaking allegiance so long as you set the required points aside?

2) If he's killed, disappears, and then is set up again... do you have to pay points for him again? My understanding is that you have to pay points if you set up a new unit, rather than healing an existing one. Being killed, removed from the board, and then set up again X turns later would seem to be a case of this. 

However, the "Summoned from the Mists" special rule specifically states that "Whenever he returns, all his wounds are healed." This strongly suggests that it is in fact the same Green Knight who is being set up, rather than a new unit, which (presumably) wouldn't require additional reinforcement points. Moreover, the Green Knight is a unique model - "only one of this model can be included in a Pitched Battle army" - so if you have to pay for him again and set up a new unit... you can't because you can only include the Green Knight in your army once. 

This leads me to two possible interpretations of the rule: 

2a) It's the same Green Knight coming back each time, so you only pay reinforcement points for him once, subsequent set-ups are free

2b) It's a new unit being set up each time... but since you can only include one instance of the Green Knight he can only be summoned once

To me 2a seems most in line with what's actually written and how the rule was likely intended to work, but I'm not sure if that's the actually the case - RAW, how do you guys think this very unusual character works?

Thanks in advance for your input, and fire away!

[KnightFire]

I would play it as:

1- yes he doesn't break allegiance, but also cant be your general or count towards your minimum hero count for matched play

2- he costs points each time he comes back, as the unit (him) was removed from the game. You can keep bringing him back as long as you have sufficient points (and desired) to do so.

[rokapoke]

(1) Since he's part of your reinforcement points, I expect this does not break allegiance. Interesting loophole, since he self-summons.

(2) The Green Knight's ability states "if the Green Knight is slain...", meaning that the unit (model) actually dies. In contrast, you have Tyrion's Heart of Avelorn ability, which states "on the roll of 2 or more, the Heart of Avelorn breaks, but Tyrion is not slain" (emphasis added). Since Tyrion isn't slain, you set up the same Tyrion model. However, the Green Knight is slain, and further setups mean further reinforcement point costs.

That's my two cents. Or four cents, if I've given two cents per question.

[Ihoagland]

Agreed.  The quirk with all his wounds being healed is a clarification.  For instance, the ring option for my undead heroes also costs points, but only heals d3 wounds.  This emphasizes that while you are paying to summon him again, you are at least getting the full strength unit, not a partially healed one.  He always returns at peak condition.

[MrCharisma]

I don't agree with the summoning assumption. You don't cast a spell to bring him on the board nor it is an ability from another unit. This to me says he breaks Sylvaenth allegiance. 

He is a unit which is selected when composing your army which has a special deployment rule, much like a Changing or a formation like one seen with Stormfriends (yes I meant to say Stormfriends because you always make friends with your opponent by having them).

Based on the current definition of returning a model to the board, he would need reinforcement points to bring him back, similar to Valton / Phoenix / etc

 

[Popisdead]

Out of curiosity has anyone looked at his points to see if reinforcement points being required makes sense?  He was 220 or something?  What is close to that in points for those ability.

Just wondering, not saying you are wrong.

[MrCharisma]

He is 200 points and not remotely worth the reinforcement points.

[TheOtherJosh]

1. "Do not setup the Green Knight at start of battle" ... that implies that normally you would set him up and have already paid points for him. The only way to have been in a situation where that would have occurred is if he is already in your list... if he is already in your list ... and you're not playing "free people" then you just broke Allegiance.
1a. Wait until GHB 2017 for allies

2. Unit is completely wiped out and removed from the board. However, he has a self resurrection ability in the form of the "Summoned from the Mists Ability". The unit can later be setup on the board as a replacement unit for that which has been destroyed. This replacement unit requires the expenditure of reinforcement points to replace.

Think of it like a fancy version of the "Ring of Immortality" (which according to the FAQ requires points to use.)

[Popisdead]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:51 PM, MrCharisma said:

He is 200 points and not remotely worth the reinforcement points.

Fair enough.  Just asking for curiosity.

[Freejack02]

On 7/28/2017 at 5:51 PM, MrCharisma said:

He is 200 points and not remotely worth the reinforcement points.

I had never read his warscroll before now, but is he really *that* inefficient for 200 points? He's fairly fast, flies, with good defenses, but somewhat-low damage output. Against an army that lacks mortal wounds, slap a mystic shield on him and they have to chew through a 2+ unmodified save then a 6+ ward. He lacks punch, but does not seem a bad unit for 200. 

[MrCharisma]

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

I had never read his warscroll before now, but is he really *that* inefficient for 200 points? He's fairly fast, flies, with good defenses, but somewhat-low damage output. Against an army that lacks mortal wounds, slap a mystic shield on him and they have to chew through a 2+ unmodified save then a 6+ ward. He lacks punch, but does not seem a bad unit for 200. 

Sorry @Freejack02, the reference was to the Green Knight being 400pts to maxamise his abilities (200 to field him, 200 to bring him back).

I think he is good at what he does for 200pts. I use him to exploit weaknesses from the back.... attacking warmachine crew, challenge for back objectives, and split the force from my advancing army.

[Freejack02]

Ah, my mistake! I agree with using him at 200 points, though I would be unlikely to setup any additional reinforcement points for him.