Bambo

Wanderers 1750 list lf advice

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Hi all,

working on a wanderers list mostly because they look so awesome :).

 

The list:

- Waywatcher (general)

- spellweaver

- spellweaver

 

- glade guard x20

- sisters of the watch x10

- sisters of the watch x10

 

- eternal guard x19 (ppm house rule)

- eternal guard x19

- sisters of the thorn x5

- wildwood rangers x10

 

The eternal guard wil plant themself at objectives backed by sisters of the watch to kill everything comming close. Glade guard will be used for alpha strike. Rangers and sisters of the thorn will intercept anything that managed to break through. I think that part looks ok but I'm not sure about the 2 spellweavers. They will spread out and keep the eternal guard in check with mystic shield and returning d3 models. But d3 models with mostly all beeing 1 wound seems a bit of a waste. I was thinking of switching one with a shadowdancer but do I really need that spell with such a heavy ranged list?

 

any suggestions? Maybe nomad prince? Or keep it this way :)?

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Posted (edited)

Looks okay.  Not sure I would take nearly 40 EG, just 20 works for me.  Maybe swap those out for more WW heroes :D

Actually a Spellsinger, the Shadowweaver?  The WArdancer hero, use him to launch your Rangers into the enemy monster and they'll alpha strike it.  Rangers reliably take Archaon off the board.

Also maybe toss one spellweaver on a horse to keep up healing the Thorn Sisters could be something to consider?

Edited by Popisdead

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19 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Rangers reliably take Archaon off the board.

I have to wonder what kind of math goes into that statement... because it doesn't match up at all with reality (unless you're referring to the old mini Archaon scroll). Even if he didn't have a save entirely (and he has two good ones) he still wouldn't die to average rolls - and then he eats them effortlessly on the retaliation. You are over-selling them here by just a tad.

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I'd definitely run one shadowdancer and one spellweaver rather than two spellweavers. Movement spells are very powerful. I'm also really not a fan of Sisters of the Watch. If you love the models then more power to you, but I just can't stomach their insane cost. 24 points per wound is incredibly high, and their offense is nothing to write home about. 240 points of Savage Arrowboyz will deal an average of 12 damage per shooting phase (not counting any external bonuses) with an extra -1 rend against monsters. Sisters, assuming they stand still and are shooting at a chaos target will only deal 11.11 wounds per shooting phase on average. So some 5 point per wound orcs outshoot your 24 point per wound elves even under ideal circumstances for the elves, and they don't have to stay still and even get an extra bonus against monsters. 

Glade Guard at least are only 12 points per wound and have the one really nasty rend volley which is fantastic against certain opponents. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree on the sotw. They are over costed. While the glade guard have that nice alpha strike they only avarage at 6,7 dam ranged thats almost half the dam sotw do (if they not move) if you take 20 of them for the +1 to hit and for the same point cost of 240. I plan to block the points with eternal guard so my sotw don't have to move. So in 5 rounds the sotw should do more dam in the long run. Also with the spellweaver, returning d3 models gives you more value casting it on the sotw :). Don't forget the -1 to hit on shooting from waywatcher command ability. Reducing those arrow boyz to 6 dam average ;).

 

-1 spellweaver +1 shadowdancer seems indeed the better choice.

Edited by Bambo

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17 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I have to wonder what kind of math goes into that statement... because it doesn't match up at all with reality (unless you're referring to the old mini Archaon scroll). Even if he didn't have a save entirely (and he has two good ones) he still wouldn't die to average rolls - and then he eats them effortlessly on the retaliation. You are over-selling them here by just a tad.

...  okay sure.  whatever you say.

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12 hours ago, Bambo said:

I agree on the sotw. They are over costed. While the glade guard have that nice alpha strike they only avarage at 6,7 dam ranged thats almost half the dam sotw do (if they not move) if you take 20 of them for the +1 to hit and for the same point cost of 240. I plan to block the points with eternal guard so my sotw don't have to move. So in 5 rounds the sotw should do more dam in the long run. Also with the spellweaver, returning d3 models gives you more value casting it on the sotw :). Don't forget the -1 to hit on shooting from waywatcher command ability. Reducing those arrow boyz to 6 dam average ;).

 

-1 spellweaver +1 shadowdancer seems indeed the better choice.

7 wounds even if you count the champion, and 9.7 for sisters of the watch (12.2 against chaos). You are correct that the d3 models back to sisters of the watch will give you more value than glade guard, but honestly I don't think this will be that much of a difference maker very often. Sisters are so fragile that if they get targeted they are going to die, probably in a single round. Yes, your waywatcher does give the enemy -1 to hit in the shooting phase, but any enemy fliers (especially flying monsters) are going to pick off your waywatcher very early. And the -1 to hit for the arrowboys calculation really isn't relevant -- I'm not trying to state what will happen if you get into a shootout with savage arrowboys, I'm simply saying that sotw have worse offense than savage arrowboys despite costing nearly five times as much per wound. And if you *did* get into a shootout with arrowboys you'd get wrecked, -1 hit or no. 

I think you're running into a classic list building problem which is that you are imagining what will happen if everything goes right and not asking yourself what you will do if and when parts of your plan don't work. You have a massive chunk of your points sunk into ranged units that do relatively low damage. You've got nearly 40% of your points tied up in 30 wounds worth of slow models with light armor. You have no fast combat troops at all, which means that your opponent is likely to have the initiative and you are going to have to force them off objectives rather than the other way around. It seems like you imagine yourself sitting on top of the objectives and shooting with all of your ranged units, but you have to get there first. Unless your opponent is running all slow units, you are likely to have at least a turn or two where you are fighting on the move and won't be able to benefit from the sisters' double shot or the eternal guard's special ability. 

I certainly think this list *can* win games and it'd be very good against certain opponents -- particularly ones that use a lot of lightly armored, high points per wound infantry. I just also think that you aren't paying quite enough attention to the plan's weaknesses.

 

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

...  okay sure.  whatever you say.

@Freejack02 isn't wrong. 10 Rangers attacking first throw 21 attacks, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound for an average of 9.33 saves. Archaon saves on a 3+ reduced to 4+ with rend 1, so 4.67 unsaved attacks dealing d3 damage for an average of 9.33 damage. This does not factor in the Eye of Sheerian ability. If we factor in the Eye, it's got a 2/3 chance of rolling a relevant number (3, 4, 5, or 6). If it does, you're looking at 21 attacks with 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound. After saves and damage rolls you'll end up with an average of 7 unsaved wounds. So overall you're looking at an average of just under 8 unsaved wounds with an average of about 1.3 mortal wounds coming back from the Armor of Morkar. When Archaeon strikes back you are looking at an average of 11 unsaved wounds plus another d3 mortals, which is more than enough to wipe out the rangers.

So  yeah, the average result is that the wildwood rangers are dead and Archaon has 12 wounds remaining.

A unit of 10 rangers certainly can kill Archaon from full health in one round, but it's very unlikely. 

Of course, point for point you are absolutely correct that wildwood rangers will trash Archaeon, although it'll be closer than you'd think if Archaon gets the charge.

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I agree with @swarmofseals here that sisters are vastly overcosted, and I would be very wary about running two 10 blocks of them. It might be true that their sustained damage, over the course of a game, will outshine glade guard - but glades have the advantage of being able to alpha strike with the -3 rend and really hurt whatever they need to, immediately. Maybe try a single 10 unit and replace the other with a 20 unit of glade, to see which performs better? Sisters are VERY fragile, and to assume they won't have to move AND will be able to stay alive seems like wishful thinking. At least how it looks on paper - please let me know if they wind up working out well for you! I would be scared to commit 25% of my army to them, that's for sure. 

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10 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Freejack02 isn't wrong. 10 Rangers attacking first throw 21 attacks, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound for an average of 9.33 saves. Archaon saves on a 3+ reduced to 4+ with rend 1, so 4.67 unsaved attacks dealing d3 damage for an average of 9.33 damage. This does not factor in the Eye of Sheerian ability. If we factor in the Eye, it's got a 2/3 chance of rolling a relevant number (3, 4, 5, or 6). If it does, you're looking at 21 attacks with 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound. After saves and damage rolls you'll end up with an average of 7 unsaved wounds. So overall you're looking at an average of just under 8 unsaved wounds with an average of about 1.3 mortal wounds coming back from the Armor of Morkar. When Archaeon strikes back you are looking at an average of 11 unsaved wounds plus another d3 mortals, which is more than enough to wipe out the rangers.

So  yeah, the average result is that the wildwood rangers are dead and Archaon has 12 wounds remaining.

A unit of 10 rangers certainly can kill Archaon from full health in one round, but it's very unlikely. 

Of course, point for point you are absolutely correct that wildwood rangers will trash Archaeon, although it'll be closer than you'd think if Archaon gets the charge.

Thanks for the math, I was just in the middle of typing it out! Yes, unless there is some great buff/synergy I'm missing with the Rangers they certainly won't be able to alpha strike him. Now they are terribly point efficient against monsters, as that is their purpose (and I love that design), but it will take a little more muscle to reliably swat Archaon. 

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I play wanderers and I'm learning with every game I play , sisters have been dropped due to points  cost as they are way to expensive for what they do . Eternal Guard are amazing but watch out if you come up against a slaughter priest as he will drag them towards him and lose there fortress of bows bonus . Against other Armies they are well worth there points though . Personally I would  go cough up the cash on eBay for waywatchers they are amazing archers . Another unit I often use is wardancers , cast mystic shield on them then fling them 16 inches with the shadow weaver and have them do there defensive dance and hold a unit up for a turn or two while you shoot the hell out of it with some archers . Wardancers are cheap but effective if used right , cast shield of thorns on them as well and they are even more effective . Rangers are good as long as you hit first in combat because they don't take damage as well as EG . Glade guard are a good battle line just get them in to position and use the bodkins asap , if you save them for something in the later rounds you usual miss the chance as something ends up mullering them before you get chance .im currently adding a Forest dragon and Orion in to my Army but not had chance to get set them yet I'm hoping they will give me some badly needed punch in combat 

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Posted (edited)

Taking in some advice I changed my list to this:

 

waywatcher x1 (general)

spellweaver x1

shadowdancer x1

 

gladeguard x20

gladeguard x20

 

waywatchers x3

waywatchers x3

waywatchers x3

 

sisters of the torn x5

eternal guard x19

eternal guard x19

wildwood rangers x10

 

Any thoughts? 

Edited by Bambo

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Hmm still did some fiddling, since I have 5 battlelines with that list I can remove all the glade guard and replace them with a unit of 10x wildriders and 2 xtra waywatcher heros. Seems to me the waywatcher and waywatchers are the best ranged units availble for wanderers. The wild riders can somewhat replace the glade guard alpha strike with shadowdancer combo. Or to far fetched? :P

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2 minutes ago, Bambo said:

Hmm still did some fiddling, since I have 5 battlelines with that list I can remove all the glade guard and replace them with a unit of 10x wildriders and 2 xtra waywatcher heros. Seems to me the waywatcher and waywatchers are the best ranged units availble for wanderers. The wild riders can somewhat replace the glade guard alpha strike with shadowdancer combo. Or to far fetched? :P

I like the second list better than the first for sure! The Wild Riders idea isn't bad, although they also hit a bit weaker than you'd think. For something to be an "alpha strike" it has to have enough punch to deal a crippling blow, and Wild Riders will struggle to pull that off. I played Wood Elves back in WHFB, and it was almost always a mistake to send in Wild Riders by themselves. The key was isolating enemy units and hitting them with multiple charges at once, which Wild Riders were great for. Different rules system now, but I think the concept holds. 

The other problem is that Wild Riders and Glade Guard fill totally different niches. Wild Riders are horrible against heavy armor, whereas Glade Guard are your single best chance at taking out a heavily armored target. Your waywatcher units won't fill that role reliably. The heroes can do some damage to armor but you really want to be firing fast shots, not precise shots most of the time. 

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Yeah the wildriders probably won't really replace the gladeguard rol. 

Still some fiddling.. :P

maybe replace one waywatcher with a nomad prince. Make him general, that could help all hit rolls even for shooting.

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The most powerful component of a wanderer army is a nomad prince buffing multiple Waywatcher heroes. In a competitive list, a nomad prince as the general is pretty important for his command ability. Multiple Waywatcher lords under that command ability will shoot down most anything. This also helps ensure you don't waste the bodkin arrows too. That is just the start. You really need one of the forest dragons on the board as well. A glade lord/sisters on Dragon with mystic shield and shield of thorns will handle just about anything and is even better against units like Blight Kings which are super tough but have no answer for killing themselves on the dragons thorns.


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19 hours ago, SoonerSox said:

The most powerful component of a wanderer army is a nomad prince buffing multiple Waywatcher heroes. In a competitive list, a nomad prince as the general is pretty important for his command ability. Multiple Waywatcher lords under that command ability will shoot down most anything. This also helps ensure you don't waste the bodkin arrows too. That is just the start. You really need one of the forest dragons on the board as well. A glade lord/sisters on Dragon with mystic shield and shield of thorns will handle just about anything and is even better against units like Blight Kings which are super tough but have no answer for killing themselves on the dragons thorns.


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Any suggestion on what to switch to fit in the forest dragon?

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4 hours ago, Bambo said:

Any suggestion on what to switch to fit in the forest dragon?

You could do something like this (using the house rule you previously mentioned:

 

Glade Lord (100)

2x Waywatcher (200)

Glade Lord on Forest Dragon (340)

Spellweaver (100)

Shadowdancer (100)

20x Glade Guard (240)

2x3 Waywatchers (160)

5 Sisters of the Thorn (220)

2x18 Eternal Guard (288)

TOTAL: 1748

 

The Glade Lord on Forest Dragon replaces the role of the Wildwood Rangers, everything else plays similarly. You lose a bit of big AP punch with only one unit of Glade Guard, but you do get some of that back with the Glade Lord's Hail of Doom Arrow and double Waywatcher heroes, all of whom will benefit from the Glade Lord's reroll 1's to hit combat ability. Personally, I might drop one Eternal Guard unit entirely, reduce the other to 15 men, and drop one unit of Waywatchers for another 20 man glade guard squad. Alternately, you can drop a unit of EG, increase the Glade Guard to 30 and the other squad of EG to 21. 

If you wanted to expand to 2k, you could do so very easily by swapping the Forest Dragon for Sisters of Twilight, dropping a unit of waywatchers and adding a second unit of 20 Glade Guard and one more dude for an EG squad. 

There are still some things about this list that bug me, but it definitely has some very powerful tricks that it can pull. You will have one very nice shooting phase per game, a respectable shooting phase after that, and flinging a dragon 28" across the table is no joke. 

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13 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

You could do something like this (using the house rule you previously mentioned:

 

Glade Lord (100)

2x Waywatcher (200)

Glade Lord on Forest Dragon (340)

Spellweaver (100)

Shadowdancer (100)

20x Glade Guard (240)

2x3 Waywatchers (160)

5 Sisters of the Thorn (220)

2x18 Eternal Guard (288)

TOTAL: 1748

 

The Glade Lord on Forest Dragon replaces the role of the Wildwood Rangers, everything else plays similarly. You lose a bit of big AP punch with only one unit of Glade Guard, but you do get some of that back with the Glade Lord's Hail of Doom Arrow and double Waywatcher heroes, all of whom will benefit from the Glade Lord's reroll 1's to hit combat ability. Personally, I might drop one Eternal Guard unit entirely, reduce the other to 15 men, and drop one unit of Waywatchers for another 20 man glade guard squad. Alternately, you can drop a unit of EG, increase the Glade Guard to 30 and the other squad of EG to 21. 

If you wanted to expand to 2k, you could do so very easily by swapping the Forest Dragon for Sisters of Twilight, dropping a unit of waywatchers and adding a second unit of 20 Glade Guard and one more dude for an EG squad. 

There are still some things about this list that bug me, but it definitely has some very powerful tricks that it can pull. You will have one very nice shooting phase per game, a respectable shooting phase after that, and flinging a dragon 28" across the table is no joke. 

I think you mistaken some heros though, there is no glade lord on food and the  hail of doom ability is from the wayfinder who does not have the reroll 1s command ability. 

That said I managed to squeez in the sisters of twilight on forest dragon ;).

 

Nomad prince (general)

shadowdancer

waywatcher x3

sisters of twilight on forest dragon 

 

glade guard x20

waywatchers x3

waywatchers x3

waywatchers x3

 

eternal guard x18

sisters of the watch x5

 

I removed the spellweaver since most units only have 1 wound. Don't see much value in that and it made some room for the dragon :)

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1 hour ago, Bambo said:

I think you mistaken some heros though, there is no glade lord on food and the  hail of doom ability is from the wayfinder who does not have the reroll 1s command ability. 

That said I managed to squeez in the sisters of twilight on forest dragon ;).

I removed the spellweaver since most units only have 1 wound. Don't see much value in that and it made some room for the dragon :)

I was surprised by this, but the Glade Lord warscroll actually does have a points value in the GHB. It's still a valid warscroll to take at 100 points. It's a compendium warscroll, but then again some of the other stuff you are taking is compendium as well. 

You made room for the dragon but you removed other key parts of the list to do it. The Sisters of the Thorn are pretty key to your strategy -- without them your melee capability goes down considerably, and your dragon become much less survivable. Taking out the Spellweaver does make sense if you are also taking out the Sisters of the Thorn, but if you keep the Sisters of the Thorn you will primarily want the Spellweaver to cast Mystic Shield.

Is there a reason why you are taking three units of waywatchers? They are really bad, and the glade guard count as one of your battleline choices. 

Do your house rules allow you to take units under minimum size? If not then the Sisters of the Watch x5 isn't valid.

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27 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I was surprised by this, but the Glade Lord warscroll actually does have a points value in the GHB. It's still a valid warscroll to take at 100 points. It's a compendium warscroll, but then again some of the other stuff you are taking is compendium as well. 

You made room for the dragon but you removed other key parts of the list to do it. The Sisters of the Thorn are pretty key to your strategy -- without them your melee capability goes down considerably, and your dragon become much less survivable. Taking out the Spellweaver does make sense if you are also taking out the Sisters of the Thorn, but if you keep the Sisters of the Thorn you will primarily want the Spellweaver to cast Mystic Shield.

Is there a reason why you are taking three units of waywatchers? They are really bad, and the glade guard count as one of your battleline choices. 

Do your house rules allow you to take units under minimum size? If not then the Sisters of the Watch x5 isn't valid.

Its my error.. It should be sisters of the torn :). They look to good to pass on. I didn't know there was a glade lord. I use the azyr app to make my lists and it doesn't have a glade lord. Will need to look that up. 

I used the waywatchers to easy fill the battleline reqs. I assumed they where better value than the gladeguard. You need them atleast with 20 per unit and both waywatchers and gladeguard are ****** melee. So I thought I need to spent more points on units that can keep the enemy at bay while the rest shoots them down :)

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I'm an old school Wood Elf player and have a bunch of Sylvaneth. A lot of my games have been a mixed Order list, if you can use Dryads, they are one of the most efficient battleline units in the game. They benefit from Sylvaneth Wyldwoods but even without that, they do pretty great. 20+ units are pretty efficient speedbumps that do some respectable damage on the way out. If you are happy going outside WE, Treekin are insanely efficient and durable speedbumps too. 

I've had huge success with 20x Eternal Guard in every game I've played. Would do 30x if I had the models, as before they can do FoB a lot of them die. Getting in cover near an objective is almost always possible, and they are basically unkillable when you have a Spellweaver nearby to cast Mystic Shield or Regrowth on them. I would only take one unit of 5x SoT for every 20-40 EG. You only want them for the spell and bonus shooting against whatever the EG has held up. 

Waywatchers have been pretty awesome since you can take them as MSU that do just enough damage to be scary. I often field 3 units of 3. 

Wild Riders die fast and don't hit as hard as we imagine. Skip them imo. 

There are a few ways you can play WEs, but Eternal Guard melee lines reinforced with Spellweavers and archers behind is pretty straightforward and powerful. Also suggest using a Nomad Prince as general as his command ability is way better than the Waywatchers for just forcing your opponent to roll saves. 

 

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9 hours ago, Bambo said:

I didn't know there was a glade lord. I use the azyr app to make my lists and it doesn't have a glade lord. Will need to look that up. 

I used the waywatchers to easy fill the battleline reqs. I assumed they where better value than the gladeguard. 

Glade Lord is in the Wood Elves compendium and has a points value in the GHB. I'm not sure why he isn't in Azyr; he's in Scrollbuilder. His warscroll is kindof a mashup of the Nomad Prince and the Wayfinder. He has a couple of options: Bow of Loren (same as Wayfinder) plus Starlight Greatblade (a bit worse than the Nomad Prince's Starlight Spear, Kindred Blade plus Starlight Spear (but a weaker version than the Nomad Prince), or Bow of Loren, Hail of Doom Arrow, hunting falcon, and Kindred Blade. The first version makes him OK in melee and range, the second version sucks and should pretty much never be taken, and the third version makes him more focused on range. He doesn't get the Eye Thief ability for his falcon, however. He does get the very mediocre Arrow of Kurnous ability (it's not nothing, I suppose), and he has the same command ability as the Nomad Prince. 

Waywatchers are indeed the cheapest way to fill battleline, but you already have one battleline filled with your glade guard so you only really need 2 units of Waywatchers. Aside from that, why assume about value when you can figure it out for certain?

Waywatchers (fast shots) fire 7 shots and generate an average of 1.17 extra shots. Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+ that gives us a total of 2.73 rend 0 damage. If you factor in the Nomad Prince command ability, you get 3.25 rend 0 damage. With precise shots (and the command ability), you get 1.04 rend 2 damage and 1.04 rend 0 damage. 10 Glade Guard cost 1.5 times as much as Waywatchers, so we'll multiply those numbers by 1.5 to compare with a unit of 10 GG and 3 to compare with 20 GG. So vs. 10 GG point for point we're looking at 4.88 rend 0 damage OR 1.56 rend 2 and 1.56 rend 0 damage, and vs. 20 GG we are looking at 9.76 rend 0 damage OR 3.12 rend 2 and 3.12 rend 0 damage.

10 Glade Guard average 3.21 rend 0 damage (rend 3 once per game). 20 Glade Guard average 8.17 rend 0 damage (rend 3 once per game). 

So offensively, you are correct that Glade Guard fare worse than Waywatchers, except perhaps on the turn that they use their Arcane Bodkins. Waywatchers (fast shots) are 52% more efficient than 10 strong Glade Guard and 19% more efficient than 20 strong Glade Guard. 

Defensively, it's a different story. Waywatchers have 4.5 effective wounds (6.75 if you control for relative cost), while Glade Guard have 12 effective wounds. That makes Glade Guard 78% more efficient defensively. It evens out a bit if you are in cover and getting shot at, but the Glade Guard still have an edge there.

Glade Guard offense also degrades much more slowly as they take wounds, although if you run a 20 man squad that first wound you take does hurt a lot. 

Take from that what you will!

 

Just as aside, I don't think your shooting will really keep the enemy at bay at all. Shooting just doesn't function like that in this game unless you have truly overwhelming firepower. Missile weapons don't have stopping power at all, and since there is no routing mechanic in this game that causes enemy units to move backwards when they break. The enemy will come at you, and it will reach you. This is especially true of fast melee armies like Goretide, most Destruction, etc. In order to really have a chance of really keeping a melee army in bay, you need to run a complete gunline and will probably need mixed order (with support from something like the Celestial Hurricanum) to do it. 

That isn't to say that your shooting won't be powerful or helpful -- it will be -- but it's more about weakening enemies before they hit your lines or taking out critical support characters. 

Luckily, your army is designed to absorb a pretty strong hit with the dragon/EG supported by Sisters.  

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13 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Glade Lord is in the Wood Elves compendium and has a points value in the GHB. I'm not sure why he isn't in Azyr; he's in Scrollbuilder. His warscroll is kindof a mashup of the Nomad Prince and the Wayfinder. He has a couple of options: Bow of Loren (same as Wayfinder) plus Starlight Greatblade (a bit worse than the Nomad Prince's Starlight Spear, Kindred Blade plus Starlight Spear (but a weaker version than the Nomad Prince), or Bow of Loren, Hail of Doom Arrow, hunting falcon, and Kindred Blade. The first version makes him OK in melee and range, the second version sucks and should pretty much never be taken, and the third version makes him more focused on range. He doesn't get the Eye Thief ability for his falcon, however. He does get the very mediocre Arrow of Kurnous ability (it's not nothing, I suppose), and he has the same command ability as the Nomad Prince. 

Waywatchers are indeed the cheapest way to fill battleline, but you already have one battleline filled with your glade guard so you only really need 2 units of Waywatchers. Aside from that, why assume about value when you can figure it out for certain?

Waywatchers (fast shots) fire 7 shots and generate an average of 1.17 extra shots. Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+ that gives us a total of 2.73 rend 0 damage. If you factor in the Nomad Prince command ability, you get 3.25 rend 0 damage. With precise shots (and the command ability), you get 1.04 rend 2 damage and 1.04 rend 0 damage. 10 Glade Guard cost 1.5 times as much as Waywatchers, so we'll multiply those numbers by 1.5 to compare with a unit of 10 GG and 3 to compare with 20 GG. So vs. 10 GG point for point we're looking at 4.88 rend 0 damage OR 1.56 rend 2 and 1.56 rend 0 damage, and vs. 20 GG we are looking at 9.76 rend 0 damage OR 3.12 rend 2 and 3.12 rend 0 damage.

10 Glade Guard average 3.21 rend 0 damage (rend 3 once per game). 20 Glade Guard average 8.17 rend 0 damage (rend 3 once per game). 

So offensively, you are correct that Glade Guard fare worse than Waywatchers, except perhaps on the turn that they use their Arcane Bodkins. Waywatchers (fast shots) are 52% more efficient than 10 strong Glade Guard and 19% more efficient than 20 strong Glade Guard. 

Defensively, it's a different story. Waywatchers have 4.5 effective wounds (6.75 if you control for relative cost), while Glade Guard have 12 effective wounds. That makes Glade Guard 78% more efficient defensively. It evens out a bit if you are in cover and getting shot at, but the Glade Guard still have an edge there.

Glade Guard offense also degrades much more slowly as they take wounds, although if you run a 20 man squad that first wound you take does hurt a lot. 

Take from that what you will!

 

Just as aside, I don't think your shooting will really keep the enemy at bay at all. Shooting just doesn't function like that in this game unless you have truly overwhelming firepower. Missile weapons don't have stopping power at all, and since there is no routing mechanic in this game that causes enemy units to move backwards when they break. The enemy will come at you, and it will reach you. This is especially true of fast melee armies like Goretide, most Destruction, etc. In order to really have a chance of really keeping a melee army in bay, you need to run a complete gunline and will probably need mixed order (with support from something like the Celestial Hurricanum) to do it. 

That isn't to say that your shooting won't be powerful or helpful -- it will be -- but it's more about weakening enemies before they hit your lines or taking out critical support characters. 

Luckily, your army is designed to absorb a pretty strong hit with the dragon/EG supported by Sisters.  

I think you are right about the glade guard. The fact that the waywatchers only have 1 wound, a unit could die from a single arcane bolt. As where gladeguard could get d3 slain models back with a spellweaver. 

 

New list:

glade lord (general)

spellweaver

shadowdancer

waywatcher 

waywatcher 

glade lord on forest dragon

 

glade guard x20

glade guard x20

waywatchers x3

 

eternal guard x16

sisters of the torn x5

 

The only thing im not sure about is the gl on forest dragon. 2 units of 20 eternal guard (instead of 1 of 16) could hold a point alot better than the dragon and there is still room for another waywatcher hero and 4 more gladeguard to compensate for the dam the dragon could do.

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1 hour ago, Bambo said:

 

The only thing im not sure about is the gl on forest dragon. 2 units of 20 eternal guard (instead of 1 of 16) could hold a point alot better than the dragon and there is still room for another waywatcher hero and 4 more gladeguard to compensate for the dam the dragon could do.

It's definitely an open question and one that you will probably have to play some games to sort out which is better. You are absolutely right that a second unit of EG can hold a point better than the dragon. The dragon serves a different purpose, giving you a lot more mobility and the ability to respond to threats more proactively. With the dragon configuration you'd likely be holding your rear objective with glade guard and trying to hold the forward objective with the EG and then using the dragon to support whichever spot needs more help. 

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Thnx for all the advice. I definatly got alot out of it. Got a couple of lists to try out, will let you know how they play :). 

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